[IR + Misc.] Covid-19 Discussion and Birna's C-19 Photo-Collage

[Stefano]

Far-UVC selfies on the way?

[nfoto]

Fortunately, the UV-Nikkor extends its UV response right down to the 220nm range.

[Andy Perrin]

Better have a way to verify that nothing outside the “safe” range is left unfiltered...

[Cadmium]

The link is not about photography. You won't be able to capture a 222nm photo with any common sensor.

The link is about deeper UVB, 207nmm to 222nm, and how that range of UBV isn't dangerous to the skin or the eyes even.

Ninjin mentioned to me how certain UVC lights have that range. Of course these are also filtered.

The link is about killing viruses. Since this topic is more about the virus and some about UVB bulbs being used for killing viruses and safety about doing that,

I figured this link would be appropriate for those interested in using UVB for sterilizing surface from viruses (but don't try this yourself!).

.

[Ninjin]

Yes, but I have to say - I said only about the existence of the article.

I am not saying - that 222 nm is safe.

At least personally, I believe that the safety data for the eyes and skin are not enough. I think they talk about it hastily, and this is a theoretical thing.

 

Some time ago, I was choosing a disinfection lamp for my studio, at this time. I examined the lamps and saw these works:

https://www.ushio.co...8l8o5M3FsD-IEZ8

However, I still do not understand what kind of light or filter is used to remove 250 nm+, and I did not see the normal graph of filter and other data..

 

 

 

Currently for my: I am using the "UVC-B Uniel" 254 nm, 9 w. Chinese. https://uniel-shop.r...l-9-uvcb-2g7-cl

 

Of course, I use the protection of the eyes and skin to turn on / off the lamp, and I drive out myself, the pet and flowers.

It works well. This requires airing - since the lamp is UV 180-300 nm, if I remember correctly. The smell of ozone - it takes some time to ventilate.

 

 

I actually wanted a lamp UVC ДКБУ-9 (UV 180-275), Russian.

 

I am going to buy it soon, but now in high demand. Due to the situation - often out of stock. This lamp is also used to irradiate the nose and throat. It is about seconds, of course. There are various contraindications as well.

It has a comfortable cone for irradiate of nose, and the most popular case. But I myself have not tried it yet.

 

 

Although, in fact, I'm not sure IF I get the courage to use this for the nose. I heard the lamp could explode. Rarely, but still.

[dabateman]

Wow crazy,

I would never stick that thing up my noise.

 

The 207nm lights look promising. They are monochromatic, either vaporized iodine line or filtered Kr-Br excimer lamp. These are fairly tight around this peak wavelength.

The 222nm far UV-c lights I am not so sure about.

General Mercury UVC lights are dangerous from 185nm and up.

 

Time will tell but I would like to get a 207nm light for imaging. I hope the availability goes up and costs come down.

 

 

[Stefano]

The link is not about photography. You won't be able to capture a 222nm photo with any common sensor.

The link is about deeper UVB, 207nmm to 222nm, and how that range of UBV isn't dangerous to the skin or the eyes even.

Evgeniya has told me about that before, and how certain UVC lights have that range.

The link is about killing viruses. Since this topic is more about the virus and some about UVB bulbs being used for killing viruses and safety about doing that,

I figured this link would be appropriate for those interested in using UVB for sterilizing surface from viruses.

Certainly don't listen to that one man who makes things up out of thin air... and I am not referring to anyone here...

Yes, it wasn’t meant to be a photography inspiration, but if far-UVC is really not dangerous (are we sure about that?), maybe someone could give it a try. Dabateman has an imager that can reach below 200 nm, I am not saying that he should try this, but it is theoretically possible. Of course one should be really sure that this experiment isn’t dangerous before doing it. I wouldn’t try on my skin and I don’t want to push anyone into trying it on themselves.

[JMC]

Just a quick note to re-iterate, that people should really not be shining UVC of any type on their skin. While the really short wavelength parts (200ish nm) may not penetrate through the top layer of the stratum corneum, or into the cornea, long wavelength UVC (250nm to 280nm) can very much cause burns and damage to skin and eyes. The issue is around knowing being certain of the range of wavelengths emitted by the light.

 

Irrespective of the skin or eye damage, the effect on the microbiome present it likely to be catastrophic. Removing great swathes of the existing microbiome from the skin leaves it open to rapid colonisation by Staph Aureus, which is not something you want to have as a dominant species on the skin. Also I dread to think how much damage is done to the skin lipids that make up the skin barrier by UVC, so you'd be making your skin more permeable, which again is not a good thing, as it's what keeps the bugs out and stops you from drying out.

[Cadmium]

You should not be using UVC, or UVB, or even UVA for that matter.

Of course some of us here use UV (mostly UVA) for UV photographs and for fluorescence photography, but we take the needed precautions.

The article is about a somewhat narrow bandpass of UVC, using FILTERED UVC light.

They used a special UV light, and then filtered that with a custom made bandpass filter to limit the light to a narrower defined band. The filter they had made by OMEGA.

All their equipment is listed under "METHODS" about half way don the page.

https://www.nature.c...598-018-21058-w

This has nothing to do with photography. It is not intended to suggest anyone go buy any kind of UV light to sterilize anything. I am totally against people buying UV lights for sterilizing a room or a surface.

However, the information in the Nature article is very interesting. It is not something you can go out and buy, so don't even think about that.

Furthermore, any kind of use of UVC or even UVB is a really dangerous endeavor, and I strongly suggest you don't use those for anything (unless they are fully enclosed in equipment used for water or air).

Read the article, use your head, and wear a mask.

Stay safe.

[Cadmium]

Yes, but I have to say - I said only about the existence of the article.

I am not saying - that 222 nm is safe.

 

Ninjin, I think the article you refereed to was the one below, not the one I posted, but there are similarities.

https://www.ushio.co...irIXa1VSM7UnqJg

[Cadmium]

I am going to buy it soon, but now in high demand. Due to the situation - often out of stock. This lamp is also used to irradiate the nose and throat. It is about seconds, of course. There are various contraindications as well.

It has a comfortable cone for irradiate of nose, and the most popular case. But I myself have not tried it yet.

 

 

Although, in fact, I'm not sure IF I get the courage to use this for the nose. I heard the lamp could explode. Rarely, but still.

 

Sorry, but that just looks insane to me. You put it in your mouth and up your nose?!

Yikes!

[Andy Perrin]

I’m with Cadmium, that thing looks scary.

[Ninjin]

You put it

 

Hmm .. I just said - I'm going to buy it. (Intending). Personally, I would NOT use it for my nose because I think the risk is more than the benefit.

But I like this case is suitable for installing a filter. I would like to try for a photo some of my glasses that are of interest to me. These are ЖС3, BC and УФС2 glasses. I have not yet figured out how to apply it. This is my own interest about luminescence, not related to the nose.

Well, in parallel, if I could deal with the virus, though..

Anyway, the lamp costs less than $ 25 and before quarantine - it was in any pharmacy next to aspirin. I was going all the time, but not bought it ..

 

 

If ЖС3+УФС 2, I think I have 4 mm thickness.

 

[Ninjin]

UV lights for sterilizing a room

 

I agree about skin irradiation, perhaps, but why you are against, if UV radiation in the room?

It is widely used, why not.

I leave the room, then turn on the lamp. This is an empty room, a lamp inside, and will not break the door.

Then I turn it off and go in. Window + forced ventilation. I do the same in the hallway, where clothes, shoes, etc.

Of course, this does not always happen, only when the situation is very bad, as it is now. If there is flu everywhere or something like that.

[Cadmium]

UV light can also damage some surfaces and materials. I have no information about that, but given that sunshine contains no UVC and very little UVB, one might want to research what such deep UV can do to surfaces and materials in the home...

Just a thought.

[nfoto]

Of course there is a very legitimate need for a sterilised room -- in a hospital. However, go on killing microorganisms en masse simply because there is an available technology to do so is not very wise for all sorts of reasons. Amongst them is man's misjudged and failed attempts to understand or intervene in matters of ecology and holistic nature. Thus, our abuse of cheap widely available antibiotics has created a growing problem of resistant bacteria so in the foreseeable future, we may well have lost our weapons and defence against many common deceases and incidents. In the end, simple cases such as a cut in your finger might lead to sepsis and fatality. Pneumonia will again become a threat to our lives. And so on, ad nauseam.

 

Given that microorganisms never are perfectly identical, any attempt to decimate them will trigger a very rapid evolutionary response on a time-scale we cannot guard against. Jonathan mentioned the likely overgrowth of staphylococci on treated skin and I'm sure there are myriads similar situations.

[dabateman]

There are already quite a few types of bacteria that are resistant to UVC radiation. I think I mentioned some in Jonathan uvc thread when we first talked about this 222nm/ 207nm light source.

 

You will select for them. UVC is actually quite bad at sterilization. This is what I do, reviewing sterilization technologies in pharmaceutical industry.

 

You would be better to use vaporize hydrogen peroxide. But it too is not great an obvious very bad for you.

 

If you really want to clear a room out then look into ethylene oxide or gamma irradiation. Those will sterilize, but not for home use.

[Stefano]

The problem (the same happens for cancer and other things) is how to kill bacteria and viruses without killing people. Using a flamethrower will certainly sterilize skin, but also kill the patient. Maybe that was a bit extreme, but the concept is the same.

 

I know that gamma radiation can turn things radioactive, because it can “knock out” protons and neutrons from nuclei, changing the atomic number or the isotope of the atom, which can result in a radioactive isotope. It is effective since it is difficult to block it and form shadows (unlike for UVC), and I think is used to sterilize surgical tools.

[dabateman]

Actually lots of things are sterilized using gamma. The validation is quite easy and you don't need biological indicators.

Dosage mapping is sufficient, but not all things can survive the gamma process. Many plastics become brittle.

Ethylene oxide is also common. Many foods are sterilized using it. Even mail for a while was sterilized using EO.

 

The best that I like is terminal moist heat sterilization in an autoclave. But would be hard to do that a home. Although some pressure cookers are very close.

[Andrea B.]

So here we are a couple of months later -- still in a Pandemic. I hope all of our UVP members are dealing as well as they can with this. In many places there has been an excellent effort to "flatten the curve". I hope all of you all are in such a place !! I hope you are faring well and getting through this. We still have a ways to go before the vaccines are developed, so use your masks, OK?! Hang in there.

 

***********

 

Me, I'm here in my state of New Mexico whose Covid-19 curve is under control (thank you State of New Mexico for your very hard work on this!) but whose climate is unfortunately exhibiting signs of heat stress. For it to be 90°F/32.2°C at 7000f/2134m in June is unusual. The sun seems more intense here. Climate change during a Pandemic is not something I want to think about too much right now. Later, later....

 

This house does not have air conditioning. It has several fans. But even with every effort to use the fans with strategically opened windows for cross-ventilation, the inside of my house reached 85°F/29.4°C yesterday. Thank the stars, at night it does cool down outside to the 50-60s (10-15.5°C) so I can get the house back down to about 72°F/22°C.

 

Today we are experimenting with fans on but all windows closed and curtains/shades drawn to block the heat because there is a lot of smoke blowing over from wildfires in the neighboring state of Arizona. Wildfire season during a Pandemic is not something I want to think about too much.

 

I note in passing that while skylights are glorious in the winter and spring when light is wanted, they also let a lot of heat pass through. We are looking into heat blocking for the skylights in the kitchen.

 

We have ordered a set of rooftop solar panels and some air conditioning. We know we are wimping out. But geez. There is no place to go to cool down without risking the encounter with C-19. At least with the solar panels, we will be "off the grid" with the air conditioning and not hogging resources.

 

***********

 

If you can, please consider donating something to food banks if in the US or to appropriate relief agencies in other countries which can help those severely affected by the Pandemic. We who have been "lucky" must help other not-so-lucky people get through this. Thank you.

 

Best regards to all - Andrea B.

[Stefano]

Don't you like a bit of warmth, Andrea?

This was almost three years ago, inside a wooden garden house with a black, "asphalt" roof.

 

Yes, that's 48°C (118.4°F).

[Stefano]

Regarding me, I will have my exam June 26^th. It will be the first time I will enter again in my school since the end of February. I will also see again my teachers.

[Andy Perrin]

Andrea, I see nothing wrong with air conditioning if you aren't using up any resources except sunshine.

[colinbm]

Andrea those temp are to be wished for here, our summer temps rarely go below this.....;-)

Just a thought....a strategically placed solar panel could block the high sun from the skylight while allowing the low winter sun in ?

[Bill De Jager]

Andrea, now that you're out west you may have noticed that the climate is... different.

 

I've lived almost my entire life in California, usually in regions which get (mostly) mild to moderate heat in summer but with occasional serious heat waves (95-102F or 35-39C, very rarely even higher). The saving grace in these regions is the relatively low humidity during summer heat waves, which makes it possible to take a different approach to heat and ventilation management than in the high-summer-humidity eastern U.S.

 

While we now have A/C in our house, most of the time we don't use it and during earlier decades I usually had to do without. Here's the set of techniques I learned from my parents who developed it over the years, with additional tweaks I've added. Both of them grew up in climates with hot humid summers, but later moved to the summer-dry climate of California and had to adapt. These are intended for climates dry enough to make exterior air bearable; in humid areas these may not work so well.

 

1. When you know it's going to be a warm to hot day, cool the house (or other dwelling) off as much as possible in the early morning hours before it gets warm outside.

 

Starting with the first day of a heat wave, see if you can wake up reasonably early and open the dwelling up and use fans to exhaust air to the outside. Get as much air flowing through the house as you can and get the temperature as cool as you can bear to create a reserve of coolness against the coming heat. Far more heat is stored in the structure of the house and its contents than in the air it contains, as solid matter has >>100x the density of air.

This is the best time for any energetic activities (physical work or exercise) because the air is at its coolest.

 

2. Once the outside warms up to at or close to the temperature of the inside, close the house up tight including closing curtains and blinds. Yes, you need to do something about the skylights.

 

You want to hold the cool air inside and keep out the outside air, sunshine, and radiated heat, relying on the home's insulating qualities. The heat will eventually work its way inside, but this process can be greatly slowed enabling hours of comfort in the meantime.

Coverings on windows not getting sun at the moment can be left open for light, view, and morale, but you may find in some cases that this will let a lot of heat through, especially from light-colored hardscape surfaces outside. Use your judgment and make tweaks as needed.

 

Consider finding a way to shade windows on the outside, temporarily or permanently. My parents used roll-up exterior shades seasonally on the east side of the house, and later installed permanent shades over the west-facing upstairs front windows which got intense heat in the afternoon.

 

The best way to know when to close the windows in the morning will be by having exterior and interior thermometers that are reasonably accurate (not all are). The interior and exterior air will have similar temperatures and humidity as the time to close up approaches, and you want to gauge the time for closing reasonably accurately. You can use your skin, or you can use thermometers to fine-tune things and eke out the maximum cooling time without staying open too long.

 

Pay careful attention and make adjustments as needed. For instance, for whatever reason we've found that in our house, with our thermometers, it's necessary to close the house up when the outside temperature reaches a degree or two below the inside temp. Otherwise, both will rise in tandem, the inside a degree or two above the outside all the way to hot. Go figure. YMMV.

 

3. Avoid heat-creating activities (oven, stove), activities that create humidity (showers, cooking), or activities that may create odors or require ventilation (frying) once the house is closed up.

 

Do these activities when the house is open in the evening and early morning, with plenty of ventilation to get the heat, humidity, and/or odors outside ASAP. This requires planning ahead.

 

4. At some point during the day, if it's hot enough outside for long enough it will get too warm inside. If you can't turn on A/C, you may be able to live with this by isolating certain rooms that get hot or certain ones that stay cool so there are places to retreat to. Dress appropriately for the coming heat and have cool refreshments waiting for when you need them.

 

In our case we have a two-story house so the heat tends to rise to the upper story. Before we got A/C we had the option of retreating downstairs for a few hours later in the day until the evening came. As things cooled off later on we can sit by the back door in a location that's been in the shade for hours, while the front of the house is still too warm.

 

4. At some point in the late afternoon (or worst case, perhaps early evening) it will be time to open up the house and let in outside air to cool off the interior. Start blasting the interior air to the outside.

 

In low-humidity weather, by the end of the day the inside air will be more humid than the outside air and will also be stale. You'll probably find that you'll want to open the house when the exterior air is still a couple of degrees above the interior air, because the exterior air will

feel

cooler and actually

will be

physiologically cooler for you. This time, you'll want to make a subjective comparison using your own skin because it's the

effective

temperature that matters.

 

Put fans in the windows and blast the inside air to the outside. Place the fans on the hot (south/west) side of the house and open windows on the cool (east/north) side to draw in the coolest air available. However, don't try to fight the wind; if it's windy use the wind to get the job done.

 

You need to keep air going through the house for as long as possible to draw heat out of the solid matter and exhaust it to the exterior. I learned this the hard way long ago in Los Angeles, where after the first really hot day I turned off the A/C at bedtime, but woke up in a sweat half an hour later as the apartment had heated right back up again.

 

If your windows are compatible in shape, consider installing a high-power permanent fan in one window. My parents had one of these at one house and it could cool the inside air in minutes once the outside air was cool. Another alternative is a whole-house fan that goes in the attic, but I don't know if your house has an attic.

 

I once lived in a two-story townhouse where the skylight could be opened. This had an amazing ability to get huge amounts of hot air out of the house quickly without even using a fan.

 

5. As the evening progresses you can modulate your cooling efforts according to conditions that evening.

 

You'll probably want at least a few hours of air flow through the house, but you can close some windows, turn the fans down or off, etc. if it gets too cool too soon. Again, you want hours and hours of air flow to get the heat out of the building. Now you can do those heat-, humidity-, and aerosol-generating activities. This is the time to grill some meat for instance (if you're not vegan).

 

If the day's activities work against you then you may have problems. It's no fun to arrive home at 9PM after a hot day to find a home that's hot through and through. In that case you might stay up till midnight trying to cool it off and still find it too warm. I try to get home early enough to effectively cool the house down.

 

6. At bedtime, close all windows that need to be closed for privacy, safety, and security reasons. Leave open what you can.

 

This will depend on your building (one vs. two floors) and the crime (and wild animal!) situation in your area. I've had places where I could leave open at least some windows. You can install window locks so a window can be left open a few inches, allowing some ventilation while keeping out intruders.

 

In our current house I've been able to leave a few windows open on the second floor along with a running window fan, when there's been an extreme heat wave and the house hadn't cooled off enough in the evening. Bringing in outside air all night long can be a great benefit as it pulls heat out of the house for many more hours.

 

All these techniques can be used to greatly reduce the amount of time you need to run the air conditioning, if your climate is dry enough to make airing the house out workable.

 

Local and regional climate variations may suggest additional tweaks:

 

-For instance, when I've lived in the near-coastal regions of California I've usually benefited from the onshore (moving from water to land) breeze in summer which brings in relatively cool air from our cool coastal waters. Where I now live in the hills, and where I lived for a time as a child, this provides a cool evening breeze that's a great help in airing out the house. This is the climate feature I've missed the most when I've lived in areas with truly hot summers.

 

-One advantage you have in New Mexico is the extremely continental climate, with dry air and high altitude which allow nights to cool off much more. When I was in the mountains of Idaho for a little while, days were getting up to 90F (32C) but nights went down to 45F (7C) thanks to the dry air and altitude. That made the heat far more bearable. I had to leave the bedroom window open at bedtime, but always got up around midnight to close it because it it was getting too cold. Early mornings would be brisk and I'd be in warm clothes for a little while. Be aware that the monsoon season coming up in NM will bring greater humidity and you'll have to adapt to that. Nights may not cool off as much.

 

-In hilly and mountainous regions there are usually local breezes and winds going upslope/upvalley in the daytime and downslope/downvalley at night. You may be able to take advantage of these. Pay attention to the behavior of your local environment under different weather conditions and at different times of the year, and look for patterns.

 

As you've found, smoke can be an issue in the west, much more so over the last 20 years. One fall we spent over a week with the house closed up. That was unusual for my region, though.

 

You have to approach this effort with diligence and careful attention, but doing so provides great rewards in comfort (and savings in electrical bills if you have A/C and are able to reduce its use accordingly). Under less severe conditions you can be casual in your approach to this, but in a real heat wave you have to approach it much more seriously. After a while it becomes second nature to manage the air, sunlight, and radiant heat flows in your home to take maximum advantage of their daily variations.

 

Good luck!