Silene white vs Silene pink

[Andrea B.]

These silenes were photographed in Rome in 2012.

 

I know from my field guide* that the white Silene is Silene alba, now known as Silene latifolia ssp. alba.

 

I am not sure whether the pink Silenes are Silene dioica or just variants of Silene alba.

 

The typical Silene dioica has a strong pink color. In the US, Silene dioica can also have pale pink and white variants. But I don't know if that happens in Europe? One of the pink Silenes below seems to show a reddish tint in the calyx (which would indicate S. dioica), but the other pink flowers have a green calyx.

 

*Che Fiore è Questo?, 2011, by Margo e Roland Spohn, pub by Franco Muzzio Editore, Roma.

 

 

White Silene, female flower.

 

Pink Silene, male flower, hint of reddish tones in calyx.

 

 

Pink Silene, female flower, no reddish tones in calyx.

 

 

Pink Silene, female flower, slightly pinker than the two above, no reddish tones in calyx.

[nfoto]

Why couldn't they all be Silene dioica? The first sample, with white flower, does not look what I would designate S. latifolia subsp. alba.

 

Caveat being I'm not familiar with what other related species there might exist in that region. Thus just looking at the flowers and comparing to my own pictures of the two species mentioned.

[nfoto]

Consulting the ID key of the standard Norwegian flora, S. latifolia subsp. alba should have ordinary and glandular hair on the upper parts of the plant (stem and foliage), whereas S. dioica lacks the glandular hairs. Calyx of subsp. alba is pale green; narrow with 10 nerves (male). more puffed up with 20 nerves (female), respectively. Corolla white. Capsule at maturity opens with 10 upright teeth.

 

S. dioica has frequently reddish or brownish upper stem and calyx, the latter always with 10 nerves, narrow in outline (male) or more puffed up (female). Corolla bright red, more rarely whitish. The capsule at maturity again has 10 teeth, but these are strongly diverging.

 

To complicate the matter further, there is a hybrid S. x hampeana with pale pink flowers and sometimes well developed seeds.

[Andy Perrin]

We have many of this genus in Boston near me. I have a lot of UV of related flowers although I’m unsure of exact species. 

[Andrea B.]

Birna, thanks!

I don't know if I have photographs detailed enough to determine whether glandular hairs exist or not on the calyces of these flowers, so I will probably have to list my pink Silenes as Silene sp. But now I have learned a good ID point to store away for future reference for the Euro Silenes.

 

Sometimes I write an ID point on a copy of the flower file (using PS ELements, saving as a JPG) and store it away with the flower photo files so I won't forget.

*****

 

Andy, we do have several Silenes in the northeastern US. I found US versions of both S. latifolia and S. dioica while roaming around that territory (and also in NJ). When I made the flower photos in Italy, I was rather lazy - simply making snapshots as I enjoyed the parks, rather than making good documentaries for future ID.

 

If anyone wants to later ID a flower, then don't forget to photograph the stem, the stem leaves, any basal leaves, the calyx/involucre (bracts forming the "cup" which holds the flower as well as the top and bottom of the flower itself. Also make a photo of the entire plant to show both habit and habitat.

[nfoto]

A few photos for those not familiar with these two species.

 

Silene dioica, a mixed stand with both fremale and male flowers,

 

 

Silene latifolia subsp. alba: the flowers in particular the female ones are very short-lived,

 

 

In the afternoon the flowers might already be withering,

 

 

 

[Andy Perrin]

Heh, see your other thread, nfoto, for what I suspect is a latifolia flower.

[nfoto]

The "Pictorial UV" thread, you mean? There are two Silene-like flowers posted by you there, whether or not they represent S. latifolia is impossible to verify. The flower s are monoecious though, but that trait fits several species.

[Andrea B.]

Why couldn't they all be Silene dioica? The first sample, with white flower, does not look what I would designate S. latifolia subsp. alba. Caveat being I'm not familiar with what other related species there might exist in that region. Thus just looking at the flowers and comparing to my own pictures of the two species mentioned.

 

I might have to let this one go with just an identification as Silene sp. There are 60 Silene species listed for the Lazio region of Italy !! Although there are a lot which can be immediately ruled out, there are still a lot left to wade through.

 

My white Silene could be Silene latifolia subsp. latifolia. And the first time through, I overlooked the possibility of Silene nocturna or Silene canescens for the pinkish version. Here is the place where I say:  Oh well. (...laughing...)

 

Here is the Lazio Silene list:  http://luirig.altervista.org/flora/taxa/regioni.php?regione=12&famiglia=Caryophyllaceae&genere=Silene

Scroll down to see the photos.

[nfoto]

That author has a very broad comprehension of the genus Silene.  Anyway, too many alternate candidates to land an ID with any certainty. I noticed in passing that the spreading capsule teeth were attributed to S. latifolia, not S. diocia.  So I'm none the wiser.

[Andy Perrin]

48 minutes ago, nfoto said:

The "Pictorial UV" thread, you mean? There are two Silene-like flowers posted by you there, whether or not they represent S. latifolia is impossible to verify. The flower s are monoecious though, but that trait fits several species.

You have to consider that we do not have every possible silene species here in Massachusetts, and based on the New England Botanical Society key, the top photo is most likely latifolia. This is not an ID based on plant characteristics so much a statement of probability: if there are only a few species and one of them is very common and it matches the characteristics, Occam's Razor suggests that's the one.

[nfoto]

I agree in your general assumption, but despite the wisdom of William from Ockham, occasionally the non-probable outcome does occur.

[dabateman]

11 hours ago, nfoto said:

I agree in your general assumption, but despite the wisdom of William from Ockham, occasionally the non-probable outcome does occur.

Also there have been problems lately. Especially during COVID time where people were mailed seeds from unknown places.  Some people planted these to see the flowers.  So there maybe uncommon invasive species entering into the US.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/seeds-china-usda-china-gardners-a9651966.html

[nfoto]

I picked up Fl.Europ. Vol.1. The main key to Silene runs for 6 1/4 pages and comprises 194 (!) species in Europe. The subkeys to the various sections are additional.

 

Call your plants Silene sp. Unless you have pressed plants to examine later, just comparing photos to an illustrated flora is quite futile for this 'medium'-sized genus.

[Andrea B.]

Andy, yes, the Silenes in the Northeast US are much easier to sort out.

 

Birna, yes, the file is labeled simply "SileneWhite" along with data and location.