Hello All,

[Robert49]

 

I'm Robert, technically I'm a US resident but I've been living out of a couple of suitcases since retiring 3 years ago.  As of this writing I'm in Athens, Greece.  Most of my life I've shot b&w and during film days I usually had access to a darkroom, or often built one in my bathroom.  As darkrooms got harder and harder to find I stored my cameras (an old F, and a student, plastic and all manual, Nikon, that I used when doing foolish things like rollerskating with a camera) and lenses.  When digital came of age I picked up a D50 and then progressed up the consumer chain.  B&w was still the primary interest.  I was always unhappy with b&w from digital sources.  I spent a lot of time trying to get what I thought was missing from digital b&w in post or in printing. In post I still feel there is something missing with digital b&w so I played with handmade b&w ink sets for digital printing.  The printing was satisfying but increasingly time consuming.  I think the final printing solution for me will end up being digital negatives on silver paper, either through C-Type or by digitally printed contact negatives and traditional b&w chemistry.

 

UV & IR.  I had used Kodak's low iso Tech Pan over the years and knew that it had an emulsion that extended into the near IR range and I'd suspected that a lot of what I liked in b&w was that extended dynamic range, especially when it slipped into the near IR as it did with Tech Pan.  To that end, I had upgraded to a D200 for my base camera so I had the D50 modified to IR pass with an 830nm filter.  That was interesting but not what I was really looking for.  The appeal of the fixed filter IR conversion wore off.  Eventually I upgraded to a Nikon D700 for Full Frame base camera and decided to convert the D200 but this time to a full spectrum camera and try the IR route again.  I had used the standard Y, Or, R and Gr filters for years with b&w film so only needed to add an IR pass filter or two to continue in that direction.

 

I had rarely shot color film so even the color of IR shot below 830nm or so was a learning experience.  I had a bunch of filters and began collecting more.  I standardized most of my lenses to 72mm with adapters where possible and then just kept adding 72mm filters whenever I encounter them at reasonable prices.

 

The b&w is still of interest to me and I play with using whatever filter I think might be appropriate with the full spectrum camera.  Included is an image shot in full spectrum with a 630nm red pass filter and a 415nm UV blocking filter.  (At the moment I am very attracted to the clarity that IR lends to a b&w so the 415 UV block filter is generally on my lenses when shooting.  More on UV in a moment.)  The first image was shot with the filter group 415 block/630 pass with an old AI Nikon 28PC, white balanced with a cheap paper gray card (the D200 does this very well from about 695nm and down and gets a bit tricky above 695nm but can be done) converted to b&w and worked up in Capture NX-D.  Sharpening was done in Sharpen AI (which has an issue with b&w where it can introduce color fringing) so another layer to desaturate the fringing areas was done in Affinity Photo.

 

The 2nd image is from the same hardware, D200, 28PC,  415nm blocking and this time a B+W KB20 blue filter originally used to neutralize strong incandescent light in interior images with color film.  I had just picked up the KB20 brand new, still in the sealed box for about 9€.  It produces, what is for me, a far better false color image than what my BG3 does.  The BG3 was somewhere near 80 or 90€, if memory serves.  I believe all the major filter producers had a version of this blue filter.  They were never used, to my knowledge, for anything but a very specific use on color film so should still be easy to find 2nd hand or even new stuck in a back drawer somewhere.  I found mine at an old, well established, Leica dealer.  The 2nd image was also worked up in Capture NX-D for everything except sharpening which was done, again, in Sharpen AI at the size uploaded.  The color information is directly out of camera with the only change in Capture NX-D being a 30% boost in saturation.  Image was WB through the same paper gray card.  What I generally like in false color is keeping the man made elements neutral whenever possible to accent them.  The steps and walkways are in stone with the top step in a piece of white marble which shows a very true color.  There is a very slight reflection of the false color green in the white marble that I don’t see in the gray stone.  I can usually see similar reflections in low clouds over a large expanse of greenery.  Greenery in the image is mostly olive trees, ferns and grasses.

 

The third image is a surprise.  I was playing with a stack of filters while sitting in Athen’s National Garden to see what some other filters that I had just picked up on the cheap might do with the full spectrum and greenery.  This was in Dec and some of the greenery in the Garden was in winter mode but there was a lot of hearty deciduous still green along with an interesting mix of evergreen.  This was shot with a stack of a 415nm block/550nm (Or) pass/550nm graduated/B+W KR6 (amber) but shot accidentally at a WB for a stack at 415nm block/KB20 (blue)pass/550nm (Or) pass.  I don’t know what to do with it yet but I love the palate it produced and want to try it in spring when there are fresh shoots on the greenery.  The color was left alone in post although I did find that exposure, like in most IR false color images can have a great deal of influence on color.

 

As far as UV, I haven’t gone there yet.  I see it in the future but at this point finding acceptable lenses is a factor and then investing in a suitable filter will be the issue.  I have a pretty good range of older eastern european lenses adapted to Nikon F that I think will be worth exploring.  I have a lot of Pentecon 6 lenses that I use in this way.  In fact my travel kit has a couple Zeiss-Jena Biometars in 80 and 120 with F adapters as they are very lightweight compared to my similar Nikkors.  I have a number of other older Soviet block lenses that may or may not have UV capabilities but they will have to be tested.

[colinbm]

Welcome aboard, or should that be welcome abroad....?
I like your photos & look forwards to more please.
What is the benefit of a 415nm UV blocking filter in IR photography Please.

[Robert49]

Thanks, colinbm.  Back when I was shooting with the 830nm converted D50 I realized that IR focus was going to be an issue.  The company I had convert the D50 had suggested using one of their recommended lenses and smaller apertures when auto-focusing to deal with focusing issues.  I quickly realized that no auto focus was going to work in reality with IR.  By the time I had the D200 converted to full spectrum I had started logging focus correction tables for all the lenses I used for each different filter.  I found that some lenses were more linear than others in their correction and I began to eliminate as many variables as possible.  I’d always suspected that UV light mixed in with IR might throw the focus off so I started using the 415nm block that I had from another project mostly to eliminate that variable.  Somewhere along the road I convinced myself to eliminate the UV input in what I was doing.  I used to run a lot of boring tests when the weather was bad and shooting out an open window into a garden or another building.  Somewhere in there I did a test and eliminating the UV seemed to make the correction curve for focusing each lens easier.  I didn’t have any of the common UV filters that are sold as lens protectors so I used that 415nm block.  It is colorless for everything except the BG3 I sometimes use where it can give a slightly different blue when used or not used, but for everything else it is invisible.  I also was taken by the clarity of IR and doing anything that might eliminate haze seemed worthwhile.  

 

A bit wordy but I hope that explains it.

[colinbm]

OK, if it works for you then it is good.
I would have thought there was no leaking of UV with an IR long pass filter, I will need to test this ?
The B+W KB20 blue filter is a minus red filter, I like the Schotts B410 too.

[colinbm]

This is from a local Hoya distributor.

[ulf]

You are right, Colin.

Also the vast difference in sensitivity makes all of the UV drown in the IR.

 

I have even used the big IR leakage peak, around 700nm, of a UG1, 2mm, as an emergency IR-pass filter when I had forgotten the proper IR-pass filters at home. 

That gives different false colours and slightly longer exposure time than a R72-filter, but otherwise works quite well for NIR.

 

[Nate]

Nice images Robert, Affinity is really a great tool for IR and UV. Another one that has excellent WB among lots of other features is darktable, if you haven't used it yet.

I really like the color tone of your second pic.

[Robert49]

4 hours ago, colinbm said:

I would have thought there was no leaking of UV with an IR long pass filter, I will need to test this ?

I think you are correct also, colinbm.  I had first picked up the 415 blocking filter when I was playing with a B+W 489 where I was looking for a filter group that might emulate Tech Pan.  The 489 allows a lot of UV and I wanted to keep that out of the mix.  I also use a number of my old b&w filters and other oddballs that I didn't have specific response graphs for to shoot false color so I just got into the habit of keeping the 415 blocking in my full spectrum bag.  From there I just made it a habit to use it whenever I was making a focusing curve.  I hadn't given it much thought since then. Thanks for jogging my memory.

[Robert49]

Thanks, Nate.  The white balance issue was something I danced around for a very long time.  I began this journey using PS CS6 and going for WB in post. I had followed that route and made a new camera profile to get ACR into range for using the eyedropper and that was OK but at the same time I was getting myself out of the Adobe rut I was in.  Affinity was one route out of that but Affinity also had some WB range issues.  At the same time I picked up Capture NX-D to see if that could White Balance any easier.  It didn't, but very slowly I got comfortable with Capture and now use it almost exclusively as a raw converter.

 

As an alternative to WB in post I decided to try WB in camera.  I picked up a cheap 3$ cardboard gray card in my next B&H order and gave it a try.  The D200 will WB very easily in camera and that will carry into the raw files very well in Affinity and Capture.  What I also found was that getting the WB in camera I could squeeze my different RGB responses into a much tighter group and then I was getting much better exposures and captures and wasn't blowing highlights out so much.  I think the CCD sensor in the D200 helps that ability.  I know my CMOS sensor cameras will baulk at almost any attempt to WB with any colored filter no matter how minimal.

[ulf]

Oh, I forgot to say that I really like your pictures, especially the first one with the lonely biker. Apologies.

The combination of the big arch shapes with the shorter straight lines and the high contrast makes it very interesting.

[Andy Perrin]

These are fantastic shots! Welcome to the board. 
—

 

The 415nm short pass shouldn’t make any difference to an IR photo UNLESS the short pass is actually attenuating the IR also (but obviously not by much or you wouldn’t get a shot). If it’s an old filter, IR might not be in the designed-for range, so conceivably something weird might happen there? If you are sure you are seeing a difference, I wonder if that’s it. 

[Doug A]

Welcome to UVP. Fantastic images. Particularly like the bridge. Looking forward to more posts.

 

Thanks for sharing,

Doug A

[photoni]

@Robert49 welcome  :)

I hope you are not a cook, you put too many ingredients in a soup (speech)

do you have an account on Flickr, 500Px, or others to understand what you like?

Toni

[photoni]

oh my god, i hope i haven't "kicked out" a new member.
Sorry if I don't explain myself well and I don't understand long speeches .... I use google translate

my school English is bad, I'm 66 and have some memory problems :)

[dabateman]

Welcome  

I have many of the Pentacon six lenses.  A single coated and multi coated Zeiss 50mm f4. Neither transmit any UV at all.  Would be great for UV induced fluorescence though.

My 55mm shift lens too was not good. My Zeiss 80mm f2.8 and 120mm f2.8, were not great.  So Uzv but really not much. The Zeiss Olympic 180mm f2.8 I never got around to testing,  but I doubt it based on the others and its design. 

I don't have the 80mm Arsenal lens anymore and never tested it. 

Good luck with your lenses. 

[Robert49]

Not to worry, photini, it has just been a busy week.  Very pleasant weather to get outside with and my 90 Schengen days are just about up so I've been busy figuring out where and when I will go for the next six months.  It's too early for me to go back to Turkey so I had to devise a side trip to Bulgaria for a week to resolve overlaps in visas.  I will go back to North America in June so I had to schedule and firm that up before the summer prices skyrocket, as well.

 

Interesting info, dabateman, I only have the two P-6 Biometars with me and both are multicoated so I didn't have much faith in them although I really like them for travel because they are all metal yet very light.  All the rest of my Soviet Era lenses are in the US and I will be spending the summer back there.  I was hoping to come up with one that was travel compatible with decent UV characteristics that I could take with me when I hit the road again in the fall.  I have a copy of that Carl Zeiss 50/4 that might be uncoated (if not, it is single coated and wouldn't be any better than yours, I imagine.)  I have a Zodiak-8 (30mm, but that is definitely single coated) and serves best as a paperweight when traveling is mentioned.  I've still got a small assortment of Nikon adapted Soviet Era lenses to look through.  I had hopes for a Helios 58 I have after seeing that some other versions of the Helios 58 produced decent UV images but from memory mine is Multi-coated.  There is a Jupiter 37a that could be uncoated but I'll have to check on it when I get to the US.

 

I'd like to at least put together a filter set-up that accompanies my existing filter adapters in case I do run across a piece of uncoated potential UV glass that can be Nikon adapted.  I've seen the Baader "Venus Filter" (UG11xx) talked about a lot and it could be worked into my budget but I need to replace my laptop this summer and that won't leave any room for a popular, easy to obtain, UV lens.  

 

I also saw the thread here about the eBay guy with the old adapted lenses.  I too, would be leery of a printed plastic mount but he also does some MF lenses where the lens mounts to the printed plastic and then is flanged with screws to an existing metal mount for the camera.  I would think a good painted on coating on the plastic part could eliminate any potential visible or IR leak.  

 

My Jupiter 37a is similar in that concept.  The lens came with a Russian "A" Mount which is just a tube with a v-groove running round it.  There were then a number of all-metal mounts available that were slipped over the tube and attached with 3 indexing screws. That looks like something with potential to me in a printed mount to already available adapters. There is also an industry that fits older Soviet Era lenses to more and more cine cameras and they are moving into a modular approach with a generic termination and then "pick your mount."  

 

I also did a small bit of research into metal 3D printing at the end of my working career.  The problem was manufacturing a titanium or 316L Stainless bracket for mounting on carbon fiber masts.  The usual approach was machining and welding but the last project I looked at had 3D printed titanium competing with the machined and welded stainless pieces in costs.  That was over 6 years ago, so who knows what they are up to today.

 

 

[JMC]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:16 AM, colinbm said:

This is from a local Hoya distributor.

Nooo, I thought all these versions of the graph had disappeared from the web now. R72 doesn't have that drop above 850nm.

 

That odd shaped graph was the reason for many sleepless nights until the reason it was like that was sorted out. See the long thread here -

 

[colinbm]

[JMC]

Don't feel bad about it Colin. I just thought Hoya were no longer using it. Looks as though there are still some copies floating around.