Enlarging lens question

[Nate]

Hi all. I may have purchased another lens in my UV journey but I have a question. I read on here that the front thread is 35.5mm, but see 40.5mm on description, so could it actually be 40.5mm? I know I'll need to get a focuser too, but haven't done extensive research on that yet for a Canon dslr.

Is this the metal version too? Thanks for any help.

[ulf]

It is a 35.5mm front lens on this.

 

You can find the original Nikon lens brochures with all facts on member Enrico Savazzi's excellent website here:

http://www.savazzi.net/photography/old_literature.htm

[Nate]

36 minutes ago, ulf said:

It is a 35.5mm front lens on this.

 

You can find the original Nikon lens brochures with all facts on member Enrico Savazzi's excellent website here:

http://www.savazzi.net/photography/old_literature.htm

Thanks for the info

[Nate]

Just added these to this "Maybe" setup. If I can't get close enough to the sensor, I might just try a Nikkor 135mm 

[Andy Perrin]

I don’t think you need to be very close to the sensor? 80mm is a long distance (for infinity focus, and you need even more length for closer up)! 

[Nate]

3 minutes ago, Andy Perrin said:

I don’t think you need to be very close to the sensor? 135mm is a long distance (for infinity focus, and you need even more length for closer up)! 

I'm hoping I don't need to be that close. I would like to be able to get to infinity with the 80mm when it arrives, but my canon body has 44mm to sensor. Maybe I'm overthinking the distance I need.

[Andrea B.]

Review of accessories for an EL-Nikkor 80/5.6.

 

M-changer from M39/L39 to M42 for lens.

Thin mount changer for helicoid from M42 mount to Canon EOS mount.

 

Canon has a 44.0 mm FFD.

The EL-Nikkor 80/5.6 has FFD of 70.0 mm.

The difference is 70-44 = 26.0 mm.

So you need a helicoid that provides 26.0 mm of extension in order to attain infinity focus.

Get a helicoid which has a range containing that 26.0 mm.

 

If you use that 15-26 mm helicoid and the lens add-ons push the lens end even a bit beyond 26 mm, then no infinity focus. The add-on parts we buy on Ebay aren't always precise. You want to cover any measurement "slop".

 

Also you would need to extend that helicoid to its full extension to get 26mm, and helicoids at full extension have been known to leak light. Helicoids can also be less stable at full extension. There are a lot of 17-31 mm helicoids available currently. That would be a much better choice.

 

Side Note:  I'm always laughing about "infinity focus" because infinity is much closer than we realize.  Seems like I usually hit infinity focus at 30-40 feet or so. I've not actually measured that - it's just a guess - but the point remains. 

 

Another Side Note:  It seems that those of us who use enlarger lenses and other lenses needing extension manage to accumulate several helicoids over time. I've currently got a set which covers 10-15.5mm, 12-17mm, 17-31mm, 21-41mm, 30-71mm and 36-90mm. Range endpoints seem to vary over time on Ebay.

 

Hope this helps! 

[Nate]

20 minutes ago, Andrea B. said:

Hope this helps! 

Yes it does, thanks Andrea. I'll order the 17-31 too Can't wait to try them out. In the mean time, a Canon 40mm showed up, but the clouds and rain are in the forecast.

[dabateman]

A helicoid like this might be better: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/M42-42mm-to-M42-42mm-Screw-Mount-Adjustable-Macro-Focusing-Helicoid-25mm-59mm-/264634691717?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

 

Rainbow Imaging is where I order most of my stuff from in the USA. They ship out of NY.

[lukaszgryglicki]

You can also consider bellows... 80/5.6 has too short FFD for me but 105/5.6 is ideal for bellows (same with 135/5.6).

[Nate]

7 minutes ago, dabateman said:

A helicoid like this might be better: 

I do like that one. I have some canon extension tubes if I need them too, but if the ones I ordered leak or are crap, I'll  definitely get this one, Thanks

[Nate]

9 minutes ago, lukaszgryglicki said:

You can also consider bellows

I was thinking that too, but as the 80/5.6 need to be close on my 77D, I was thinking the bellows would bring too far out. A 135 would be nice too as I use one for astro, but has absolutely zero uv pass. Just curious, what cam body do you have for the distance to be too far?

[lukaszgryglicki]

Yes 80 can be tricky - I miss maybe 2mm for infinity focus on Nikon when using 20-140mm bellows - but this 20mm isn't really 20 - if that *was* 20 I would be OK, it's rather 25mm.

 

[ulf]

This might be an interesting twist to helicoid applications:

https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/index.php?/topic/2396-long-focusing-helicoid-for-small-lenses/#comment-17389

 

[Nate]

3 minutes ago, ulf said:

This might be an interesting twist to helicoid applications

That might be something I'll do when I want some macro, thanks for the idea

[Nate]

7 minutes ago, lukaszgryglicki said:

I miss maybe 2mm for infinity focus

Is there any way you can shave a couple mm of anywhere? It's so close

[lukaszgryglicki]

I just don't want to destroy this, but cannon has shorter FFD - so it may just work.

Helicoid is 20-140mm M42 one, M39-M42 ring screws inside, you will also need M42-Canon conversion - no idea how thick it is.

[Nate]

6 minutes ago, lukaszgryglicki said:

you will also need M42-Canon conversion

I think I have everything I need for this set up, but trial and error is pretty expensive isn't it.

 

[JCDowdy]

Since you are showing an M42 helicoid I am assuming you will be using a lens mount adapter for M42-mount lenses on a  Canon EF-or EF-S-mount camera.

 
If your adapter is one that provides infinity focus for M42 lenses then the minimum fully collapsed helicoid length should not exceed the difference between the flange focal distance of the 80mm EL Nikkor (70mm) and M42 lens (45.46mm) which is 24.54mm (70mm - 45.46mm = 24.54mm)

There are loads of 25-55mm M42-M42 helicoids on ebay which sadly are ~0.46mm to long to allow infinity focus for an 80mm EL-Nikkor on an M42 mount.  If you have access to a belt sander you could probably remove ~0.5mm from the thickness of the M42 to Canon lens mount adapter, they seem cheap enough for that to be the sacrificial part.

The next shortest collapsed length M42-M42 helicoid commonly available right now is the 17-31mm which will focus 7.54mm beyond infinity.  If you add a 6-7mm long M42 macro tube you should be close while retaining maximal macro extension.  M42 macro tube sets commonly include a section of this length.

The EL-Nikkor enlarger lenses are IMHO the gateway drug to UV photography.   ;-)

Several years ago I posted a compilation of the pertinent specifications gleaned primarily from Dr. Savazzi's archive.

See: EL-Nikkors: FFD, Mount & Filter Dimensions

[Nate]

8 minutes ago, JCDowdy said:

EL-Nikkor enlarger lenses are IMHO the gateway drug to UV photography

For me it was just buying a uv light that had a filter to look at cat pee or whatever. Then I got crazy addicted to this stuff from there.

 

as for the measurements, I'll wait till I get everything then see where I messed up, and probably resort back to this. I appreciate the comment.

[Andrea B.]

I should make really clear that my reccie above is based on the THIN "mount changer" M42-to-Canon EOS.

A thin mount changer does not add extension. 

A thin mount changer is for use on a helicoid to make it fit the camera.

 

There needs to be better names for this stuff! The thin mount changers are sold as "adapters" also.

 

FWIW, I'm using that same recommendation of M39/L39-to-M42 thread changer and M42-to-M42 helicoid of 17-31 mm range together with a THIN M42-to-Nikon F mount changer for my EL-Nikkor 80/5.6 when used on the Nikon D610. It all works quite well to provide the needed 23.5 mm of extensioin to reach infinity focus. 

[Nate]

33 minutes ago, Andrea B. said:

THIN "mount changer" M42-to-Canon EOS

This one right?

[Andrea B.]

Yes

[JCDowdy]

The Canon EF flange focal distance is 44.00mm and the flange focal distance for M42 is 45.46 so an adapter that provides infinity focus is only 1.46mm long which is very thin.

Just not thin enough to allow infinity focus using the 25-55mm helicoid that would give you the maximum macro extension, which was my point.  Using a shorter helicoid you lose some of that macro extension length.

 

I realize that was not what Andrea was talking about. 

Here is one of the thin ones on ebay: M42-EOSM Ultra-slim (1mm) adapter For M42 Lens to Canon EOS M EF-M mount Camera

Note: the ebay add is incorrect where it says "- Cannot focus infinity."  I will focus infinity with M42 lens but not at the INF stop.

However, like Andrea said, the total stack as I describe might still be to long so you might still need to sand the Ultra-slim a tiny bit to get a 25-55 mm helicoid assembly to focus INF.

[Nate]

2 hours ago, JCDowdy said:

The Canon EF flange focal distance is 44.00mm and the flange focal distance for M42 is 45.46 so an adapter that provides infinity focus is only 1.46mm long which is very thin.

Just not thin enough to allow infinity focus using the 25-55mm helicoid that would give you the maximum macro extension, which was my point.  Using a shorter helicoid you lose some of that macro extension length.

I see what you meant now, I'm really just after the ability to achieve infinity because I have macro lens extension tubes in ef mount for close ups. The  helicoids  I have coming are the 17-31 and a 15-26. I'm hoping for inf, then I'll go from there.