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Floral x-ray images (dezeen magazine)

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#1 microbat52

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Posted 14 February 2021 - 15:56

I thought this was pretty cool! Short read with nice images:

https://www.dezeen.c...en-awards-2021/

#2 dabateman

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Posted 14 February 2021 - 21:52

I wonder if ultrapurple ever used his x-ray machine on various plants. He did have some nice medium IR mixed with xrays and visible images.

The CT scanner is a different beast. I only briefly saw one in the Medical imaging department during my studies. Optical tomography was more of a buzz back then, as was bubbles in ultrasound.

Edited by dabateman, 14 February 2021 - 21:55.


#3 Stefano

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Posted 14 February 2021 - 22:21

I would like to use X-rays too, but if I understand the Italian laws here you have to ask permission and do a ton of burocractic stuff (like calling the Fire Department) 30 days before you even own a tube, and to use it you have to make sure the levels of radiation outside the chamber are below a certain value, so I think someone has to come in your house with a dosimeter and verify it. Incredibly complicated, a nightmare. And of course safety is a big concern. X-rays are in a way similar to UVC, but they don't stop at the skin.

What interests me more would be reflected X-rays photography (backscattered X-rays machines in airports are basically that), but there are no currently known materials that can be used as lenses for X-rays (most (all?) substances have a refractive index very close to 1 there, so they bend light extremely little). A pinhole made of lead could be used, and the hole could be made extremely tiny as diffraction kicks in much much later than in visible or even UVC light. But this is just my imagination running. I don't think I will be able to use X-rays in the future, or at least in the next years.

#4 Andy Perrin

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Posted 14 February 2021 - 23:55

View PostStefano, on 14 February 2021 - 22:21, said:

What interests me more would be reflected X-rays photography (backscattered X-rays machines in airports are basically that), but there are no currently known materials that can be used as lenses for X-rays (most (all?) substances have a refractive index very close to 1 there, so they bend light extremely little). A pinhole made of lead could be used, and the hole could be made extremely tiny as diffraction kicks in much much later than in visible or even UVC light. But this is just my imagination running. I don't think I will be able to use X-rays in the future, or at least in the next years.
That's the normal method, except they don't use just one pinhole, they use a lot of them and call it a "collimator". There's a bit more to it than that because you have to solve a system of equations that relate the intensity at each pinhole to the ones at the surrounding pinholes due to crosstalk between them from x-rays going through the thin lead between holes.

#5 Stefano

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Posted 15 February 2021 - 00:12

Interesting. I guess they use several pinholes to collect more light, but then the image must be reconstructed. I am probably not able yet to understand the math involved, but it’s a clever use of math for sure.

#6 dabateman

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Posted 15 February 2021 - 05:16

A zone plate is common I think. Not too tricky:
https://en.m.wikiped...wiki/Zone_plate

I was hoping that the Canadians behind the pinhole pro lens would have made a zone plate version, but instead they went with some silly zoom versions of the original pinhole pro.
You can print them, but I don't own a 3D printer.

#7 Andy Perrin

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Posted 15 February 2021 - 07:13

dabateman, I've seen zone plates mentioned for use with x-rays before, but I don't know how common that method is -- they only work well when the light is close to a single wavelength/energy. I've always heard collimators were the most common way.

#8 UlfW

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Posted 15 February 2021 - 10:48

I think I have heard that zone-plates are used at some research stations at MaxLab IV.
https://en.wikipedia...X_IV_Laboratory
https://www.maxiv.lu.se/
That is a really cool light source!
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#9 Ultrapurple

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 10:55

I'm a little late to the party on this one. In reply to Da Bateman yes, I have done some preliminary experiments on combining X-Ray images with colour photographs. Take a look at
https://www.flickr.c...le/48990071887/
where I have posted my 'first light' image (from October 2019) plus some technical info.

Since then unfortunately I haven't been able to do anything more on the topic, mainly because I'm regarded as one of the 'clinically extremely vulnerable' people with regard to Covid-19 and haven't really been out anywhere for the last twelve months. I do have a small garden but my horticultural skills amount only to mowing the grass and spraying everything else with weedkiller! And dandelions, whilst abundant, aren't exactly the most exciting plant to X-Ray or photograph. One fine day when I can get some nice flowers I will continue the experiment.

@Stefano - there was a very experienced radiographer here in the UK who had a private collection of X-Ray machines and used them to produce various fine art works, many of which he published (in medium resolution) on his website. Then, suddenly, the majority of the images disappeared from the site, as did all during the technical information. It turns out that the UK ionising radiation safety people had heard what he was doing and paid him a visit, during which they 'encouraged' him to remove any information that might encourage others to emulate his work without knowing what they were doing and thereby put themselves (or others) in danger. Of course, it also meant that those of us with a safe working practice were denied the benefit of his experience - not to mention discouraged from experimenting.

Edited by Ultrapurple, 22 February 2021 - 11:03.


#10 microbat52

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 11:31

@Ultrapurple that image is so cool.

Do you have a photo on the setup? Im really curious

#11 Stefano

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 12:42

View PostUltrapurple, on 22 February 2021 - 10:55, said:

@Stefano - there was a very experienced radiographer here in the UK who had a private collection of X-Ray machines and used them to produce various fine art works, many of which he published (in medium resolution) on his website. Then, suddenly, the majority of the images disappeared from the site, as did all during the technical information. It turns out that the UK ionising radiation safety people had heard what he was doing and paid him a visit, during which they 'encouraged' him to remove any information that might encourage others to emulate his work without knowing what they were doing and thereby put themselves (or others) in danger. Of course, it also meant that those of us with a safe working practice were denied the benefit of his experience - not to mention discouraged from experimenting.
Thanks for your reply. X-rays machines are regulated basically in any country. You often have to wear a dosimeter or have followed a safety training (or both) to even access rooms with operating X-rays machines inside, not to mention about using them. Owning them is a whole other mess. You can't just buy a tube and use it like it's nothing. It is very dangerous for both you and other people around you, so unless you are in a controlled environment (like a hospital or a lab) you can't use them. You need lead shielding on both you and your walls, you need a dosimeter, you need to be careful about exposure, and also the high voltages used (usually around 10-100 kV) can be dangerous. They are very interesting, but also difficult to use safely.

#12 dabateman

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 13:01

Thank you Ultrapurple! That is a whole lot more detail in the flower than I was expecting.
We too are very sensitive, so have gotten most everything delivered. Can your food delivery, deliver flowers? I am still trying to get my zombie carrots to bloom. I hope they do in March.
A zombie carrot is made by cutting the top off about an inch down. You eat that carrot root, but stick the head in water and leave it in the window. Turnips, radishes, carrots will all grow back the leaves. 2 years ago I had carrot flowers, but didn't image them.
My old floppy celery has also percked up in water and gotten new leaves.
So you can revive some vegetables. I made just have some stuff to image in a couple months.

Edited by dabateman, 22 February 2021 - 13:03.


#13 UlfW

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 13:43

View PostUltrapurple, on 22 February 2021 - 10:55, said:

It turns out that the UK ionising radiation safety people had heard what he was doing and paid him a visit, during which they 'encouraged' him to remove any information that might encourage others to emulate his work without knowing what they were doing and thereby put themselves (or others) in danger. Of course, it also meant that those of us with a safe working practice were denied the benefit of his experience - not to mention discouraged from experimenting.

It must have been the same people that decided to confiscate and destruct an old mug made of uran-glass that I had purchased on eBay, in the UK.

Edited by UlfW, 22 February 2021 - 14:25.

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#14 Ultrapurple

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Posted 22 February 2021 - 14:02

View PostStefano, on 22 February 2021 - 12:42, said:

X-rays machines are regulated basically in any country. ... the high voltages used (usually around 10-100 kV) can be dangerous. They are very interesting, but also difficult to use safely.

All true, however it is worth knowing that my machines are all fully enclosed cabinet types, completely shielded, and have all the expected safety interlocks. I wouldn't want to be in the same room as an unshielded (or poorly shielded) tube! The cheap (<€400) dental X-Ray units that are available on eBay and elsewhere frighten me for all sorts of reasons, not least the fact that at that price they're cheap enough for people to buy as toys. I'm firmly against dangerous items getting into unskilled/uneducated hands.

View Postdabateman, on 22 February 2021 - 13:01, said:

Can your food delivery, deliver flowers? I am still trying to get my zombie carrots to bloom.

Yes I think they do deliver flowers but I haven't tried. Unfortunately I have far more toys than I have time to play with them :smile:

Those zombie vegetables sound like an interesting idea. I'll see about trying something similar - although the only thing I remember ever growing with any success was a small tray of cress that I used for a 2-week timelapse video experiment about 25 years ago.

View PostUlfW, on 22 February 2021 - 13:43, said:

It must have been the same people that decided to confiscate and destruct an old mug made of uran-glass that I had purchased on eBay, in the UK.

Could be! Our postal service has become really strict in recent years about what they will and won't let you send, for example I can't mail a pack of 4 AA batteries (though, bizarrely, I can order the same pack from a mail-order company and have it delivered wherever I want). They'll soon stop us buying bananas because of the potassium isotopes... :rolleyes: