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UltravioletPhotography

[Tags] Discussion #1


bvf

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NEW TAGS?

I am open to defining new tags if there are a significant number of topics which could use them. If a new tag is defined, one of the time-consuming chores is attempting to retrofit old topics. I'll usually try to go back at least a year on retrofitting.

 

 

Andrea - I've just gone through all the posts I started (surprised how many there were!) and added tags. As a result, I suggest some new tags you might like to add:

  • Tri-colour (even if you have to spell it incorrectly)
  • Macro
  • Software
  • Health & Safety - what UV can do to living things, precautions
  • Landscape/Outdoor photographs
  • Stereo
  • UV Reach

Also, can you re-arrange the options in the New Tags selector into alphabetical order, so it's easier for the tagger to find the entry they want?

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Questions

 

Landscape/Outdoor: We have a section for that. I am just now thinking that anything in a named section does not need a tag. For example, historically we have had a Portrait tag. But we do not really need a Portrait tag because we have a People section. So I will probably remove that Portrait tag.

 

Tri-colour: Isn't Tri-colour an Emulation? And now that I have asked that, I am wondering whether a separate Emulation section might be the best approach instead of the Emulation tag?? I aways think of a good alternate solution too late!

 

Health & Safety: There are some Pinned topics addressing this. Not sure we need a tag.

 

Stereo: Yes, we need a tag for this. Or perhaps we need a separate Stereo section. I'll take some input on this from those who make Stereo photos

 

Software: More input please. What kind of software are you referring to? We already have the Processing tag for converters, viewers, editors, etc. as well as techiques of converting, editing, etc.

 

Added:

Someone will point out that we have a Fluorescence tag and Infrared tag and Fluorescence and Infrared sections and then ask whether a Fluorescence/IR tags are necessary? The answer is yes because we support a formal Botanical section where we often show floral fluorescence and infrared florals.

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Tri-colour: Isn't Tri-colour an Emulation?

If you define "emulation" as a digital emulation of film images, than Tri-color is not an emulation.

 

Your definition above is the following:

Emulation -- use for digital emulations of UV/IR film processes such as Aerochrome, collodion, etc.

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Questions

 

Tri-colour: Isn't Tri-colour an Emulation? And now that I have asked that, I am wondering whether a separate Emulation section might be the best approach instead of the Emulation tag?? I aways think of a good alternate solution too late!

 

Software: More input please. What kind of software are you referring to? We already have the Processing tag for converters, viewers, editors, etc. as well as techiques of converting, editing, etc.

 

 

No - Tri-Colour isn't an emulation - what would it be emulating? You could say that any photograph is an emulation because it's trying to emulate (or is it simulate?) reality, but that doesn't get us anywhere.

 

Software - I envisaged using this in the same way that people would use the Lens or Filter tags. To find out about different types of post-processing software, understand what they do or don't do, see samples of work using them, get comparisons, learn techniques, etc. There have been recent discussions involving PhotoNinja and RawTherapee, for example. There's also software that can be downloaded onto digital cameras - I have no experience about this but would love to learn about it if it can benefit UV & IR photography.

 

What about Macro - you didn't mention that?

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Tri-colour is clearly under Processing in my mind?

 

But so is emulation and white balancing and multispectral and insect vision (and my other suggestion of software) - it's too broad a category. , it won't help readers find things.

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Andy Perrin

But so is emulation and white balancing and multispectral and insect vision (and my other suggestion of software) - it's too broad a category. , it won't help readers find things.

I don't really see the point here - first, Processing is a tag that's been there for a while, so many things would have be be reclassified if we got rid of it (mostly my stuff, I might add... :angry: ), and second, I read it as "processing stuff that isn't already covered by the other things you listed." Processing tag should not be understood to include white balance, and multspectral isn't Processing in any sense to me, so not even sure what you are thinking there. Isn't multispectral when you have more than one spectral band of image in the same post? Like having a UV and an IR? As for Insect Vision, I read that as a scientific grouping and it might or might not include some Processing also (like what about the articles on insect vision that have no photography in them from our board even)?

 

Maybe you would prefer Processing to be renamed Computational Photography? What else am I supposed to put my Independent Component Analysis stuff under if you get rid of the tag??

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I don't really see the point here - first, Processing is a tag that's been there for a while, so many things would have be be reclassified if we got rid of it (mostly my stuff, I might add... :angry: ), and second, I read it as "processing stuff that isn't already covered by the other things you listed." Processing tag should not be understood to include white balance, and multspectral isn't Processing in any sense to me, so not even sure what you are thinking there. Isn't multispectral when you have more than one spectral band of image in the same post? Like having a UV and an IR? As for Insect Vision, I read that as a scientific grouping and it might or might not include some Processing also (like what about the articles on insect vision that have no photography in them from our board even)?

 

Maybe you would prefer Processing to be renamed Computational Photography? What else am I supposed to put my Independent Component Analysis stuff under if you get rid of the tag??

 

Andy - I'm not suggesting making any changes to the existing Processing tag or renaming it or getting rid of it or touching it in any way. I'm just objecting to Tri-colour being added in to it. If I understand correctly, your argument for including Tri-colour under Processing is that one has to process images to get to a tri-colour image and that therefore Tri-colour should be considered as part of processing. Or have I got that wrong?

 

What I am saying is that for the other tag categories I mentioned one also has to process the images to get to the final result, and so following your train of thought these would also be covered by the Processing tag. But they're not - and I don't think Tri-colour should be either.

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Andy Perrin
So where do you want to put Tri-colour? It's not emulation, and you don't want to put it under Processing, so are you wanting it to be a separate tag? I think we do have enough examples for that, and I think there will be a lot more in the future. I have a lot of plans for Tri-colours.
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So where do you want to put Tri-colour? It's not emulation, and you don't want to put it under Processing, so are you wanting it to be a separate tag? I think we do have enough examples for that, and I think there will be a lot more in the future. I have a lot of plans for Tri-colours.

 

Yes - I want a separate tag for it.

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If you define "emulation" as a digital emulation of film images, than Tri-color is not an emulation.

No - Tri-Colour isn't an emulation - what would it be emulating?

 

Shooting through 3 different filters in 3 different wavebands and then making an RGB "stack", or TriChrome, is an old, old film thing. It was how the first color photographs were made! It has about a 150 year history. So I naturally thought of "tri-colour" as a film emulation. The only difference here is that you are making a 3-filter Trichrome in 3 ultraviolet or 3 infrared wavebands rather than in the visible spectrum. But it is still a Trichrome.

References:

A Short History of Colour Photography Maxwell almost got the 3 filter thing going in 1861. Louis Du Hauron advanced it in the later 1860s using green, orange and blue-violet filters. Eventually the Lumiere Brothers combined the 3 filters onto one plate using potato starch grains(!) and thereafter stacking was no longer necessary.

This Lumiere Autochrome link shows an Autochrome potato grain plate: LINK

And here is a link to a Lumiere Autochrome photo which looks like a French impressionist painting: LINK

Other relevant links: Trichromy Trichrome Photogaphy/Flikr Trichrome

 

For the last 10 years or so, we have called this kind of thing "Channel Stacking". In theory (but apparently not in practice) that was what the Multispectral tag was meant to be used for - any kind of channel-stacked composite photo made under 3 different filters or from UV/IR/Vis extracted channels.


The "Processing" tag is meant for discussing converters or other software used on digital files. De-noisers, sharpeners, Topaz stuff, etc. I probably should have named it "Apps". :lol:

 

.

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Andy Perrin

Andrea, Processing is how I describe all my MATLAB work. I hope you include user-developed apps in that category.

 

Also, just because film tricolors came first does NOT mean that we are emulating film. That is a technical precedent but emulation means that we strive to make something look like something else. That is not the case here! It’s merely the same technique not the same appearance. Aerochrome emulation by contrast is true emulation — we want the results to look like the film.

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Also, film Tri-color has been done in visible light only. We did it in UV and IR and Andy will try it in MWIR in the future. That has no film precedent.

 

It would be an emulation if one tried to replicate the look of those film images, either by editing them or by using the same process with three filters, in visible light.

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What about Macro - you didn't mention that?

 

I am for a Macro tag

 

An UV Macro section might do, but ink a Macro tag would be better as there can be Macro images in the other sections.

 

We have

 

UV Fauna

UV Fluorescence & Luminescence

UV People

and

UV Scapes

 

 


I re-tagged all my lens tests from UV Lens to Lens.

It would be quite kind if all posters tried to re-tag at least some of their topics, not expecting Andrea to do that for them.

Tags can be useful when searching, but without knowing about old deleted tags it would not be very useful.

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Shooting through 3 different filters in 3 different wavebands and then making an RGB "stack", or TriChrome, is an old, old film thing. It was how the first color photographs were made! It has about a 150 year history. So I naturally thought of "tri-colour" as a film emulation. The only difference here is that you are making a 3-filter Trichrome in 3 ultraviolet or 3 infrared wavebands rather than in the visible spectrum. But it is still a Trichrome.

 

 

Andrea - as Stefano says, there is no film that does what our tri-colour does, so we can't be emulating it.

 

And following your logic, everything we do is just emulating film - we are using light pasing through optics and falling on a target to make images. So everything is a candidate for Emulation by this definition.

 

It's pointless using tags which are too broad - that doesn't help anyone find anything. Tri-colour, macro, stereo, et al., are quite distinct activities which need to be tagged separately.

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I'm convinced. :lol:

I'll make the Stereo tag and TriColour tag.


 

Question:

At what point does a photo become a Macro photo?

Again, I am not brying to be Challenging. But I am curious about how we would define such a tag.


 

Andrea, Processing is how I describe all my MATLAB work. I hope you include user-developed apps in that category.

Yes, definitely.

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Andy Perrin
Also MWIR tag, please! There will be a need for it imminently! My new HgCdTe camera arrived this afternoon.
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Tricolour

Tri-colour

Tri-Colour

TriColour

 

Tricolour is an actual dictionary word. But how would you all like your tag to be shown? With/without the hyphen? In cool hacker format => TriColour? Capital 'C' on Colour, or not? I'll use the British spelling.


 

MWIR tag also. :cool: :cool: :cool:

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Tricolour is an actual dictionary word. But how would you all like your tag to be shown? With/without the hyphen? In cool hacker format => TriColour? Capital 'C' on Colour, or not? I'll use the British spelling.

 

 

I'm not too worried, but if I'm pushed to vote I'd go with TriColour. I'm also OK with US-English spelling as that is what International English is.

 

Re. the definition of Macro, the formal definition is a magnification of at least 1:1 (i.e. size of an object on the sensor is at least as large as the real subject). However, people use the term more loosely to mean very close-up - my SMC Macro Takumar 100mm has a maximum magnification of 1:2. I would not be too proscriptive about this - people have the general undertsanding that this is extreme close-up rather than just a close-up like a portrait. There's also the problem that people with cameras with smaller sensors would be more constrained in the subjects they could submit because 1:1 for them will cover a smaller part of the subject than 1:1 would on a full frame.

 

So I wouldn't worry about defining it now - if we see there is a problem with what is going into this tag then we may have to revisit this.

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I want to remind anyone who has done tri-color/colour images to add that tag. The only tagged topics so far are mine. I tagged two topics, even if I posted a tri-color image also here.
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I want to remind anyone who has done tri-color/colour images to add that tag. The only tagged topics so far are mine. I tagged two topics, even if I posted a tri-color image also here.

 

I'll do it when Andrea has set up the Macro tag so I can do all my stuf at the same time rather than going throiugh it several times.

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I reminded it because the TriColour tag was added after Andrea dropped "UV" from other tags, so I thought people forgot to tag their topics a second time. Good to know no one apparently forgot to do it.
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