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Which entry level filter for UV portraits?


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Since I've only been doing IR photography I don't have any experience with UV.

I would like to experiment with UV portraits so I went looking for a cheap UV filter, just to see if it's interesting enough to continue with. And of course the filters I found were these ZWB filters on eBay and Ali.

But when looking for information here on the forum I found these tests that Andrea did (thanks) and it turns out you can't use these filters for UV photography since they pass IR and you need a second filter to block that out or your pictures look more like an IR picture than a UV picture.

So then the question rose; what are these filters intended for then?

And what filter do I need to shoot UV portraits (at bargain level prices)?

 

Thanks in advance

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Any filter which passes only UV will work. ZWB filters are intended to be UV-pass filters, that do not completely block IR. They can be used for dual band UV+IR.
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Since I've only been doing IR photography I don't have any experience with UV. I would like to experiment with UV portraits so I went looking for a cheap UV filter, just to see if it's interesting enough to continue with. And of course the filters I found were these ZWB filters on eBay and Ali. But when looking for information here on the forum I found these tests that Andrea did (thanks) and it turns out you can't use these filters for UV photography since they pass IR and you need a second filter to block that out or your pictures look more like an IR picture than a UV picture. So then the question rose; what are these filters intended for then? And what filter do I need to shoot UV portraits (at bargain level prices)? Thanks in advance

 

If you want the real deal you need the real UV filters & a lens that passes the UV & a converted camera that can see UV.....They only cost money....

Badder U is the only one.

or you can use two...Schott U360 + S8612.

Older M42 mount lens like 35mm f3.5.

You can search all these here....

Cheers

Col

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Andy Perrin
330WB80 improved on eBay is tiny but works. You mount it behind the lens. You need a lens that passes UV well though.
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There are many options.

1. Buy a Baader venus filter, really really expensive.

2. Buy a custom UV filter, like LaLa U or straight edge U.

3. Work with a stack of 2mm S8612 + either hoya (u340 or u360) or Schott (ug11 or ug1) or Chinese (zwb1 or zwb2). You will need to figure out your ideal thickness.

4. Buy 8mm thick of U340, ug11 or Zwb1.

Point 4 isn't so crazy. You can buy 4 2mm thick 52mm diameter zwb1 filters for not too much and they do stack to cut out the IR. I have tested with almost 6mm thick (3 filters of zwb1 52mm 1.8mm +1.9mm +1.9mm)

 

I will no longer recommend the 330WB80 filter as have been having too many issues with the seller.

 

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Andy Perrin

I will no longer recommend the 330WB80 filter as have been having too many issues with the seller.

With Omega??? They have been fantastic with me. Unless something changed recently, they are the best.

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I recommend these stacks in the order of my favorite. It is important to follow these thickness combination recommendations.

 

OD 5 suppression, 320nm to 400nm:

Best UV-Only stack (in my opinion): Hoya U-360 2mm + S8612 2mm thick (or S8612 1.5mm, for faster exposure, but no less than 1.5mm thick), (similarly, use Schott UG1 2mm + S8612 2mm).

 

OD 5 suppression, 320nm to 495nm:

UG11 1.5mm + S8612 2mm (similarly U-340 1.5mm + S8612 2mm).

 

OD 4.5 suppression, 320nm to 495nm:

UG11 1.2mm and U-340 1.2mm can be used (instead of 2mm) for OD 4.5.

 

Also, if you don't mind touching the violet sky a little to get a little more exposure speed (even faster than a Baader U):

OD5 suppression, 320nm to 405nm:

Hoya U-360 1.2mm + S8612 2mm (faster than the rest).

 

These can be used as separate filters screwed together (stacked),

or glued together as one stack, which should be done by someone who has done that, bit of a learning curve there, no reason to glue them yourself.

There are glued stacks of any of these available.

These calculated recipe recommendations do no apply using any Chinese equivalents, you are on your own there, totally random and untested varied actual sources and cooks.

Nothing against China, just don't trust their filter glass, no way to accurately calculate or predict the results of their filters. I have tested is, I would not use it myself.

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With Omega??? They have been fantastic with me. Unless something changed recently, they are the best.

 

Yep the last exchange was comical.

 

Customs was holding up my last filter? Maryland must have a customs office I don't know about between states. Or just making up stories (more likely) to delay and delay, to run out the return clock.

Then when I did return, no refund. But ebay steped in to correct it.

 

Also last couple of filters have either horrible glueing, bad visible or IR leaks.

 

Definitely stay away.

 

Bright side was a filter easily came apart and I was able to polish the 1mm thick UG11 glass. I now maybe able to stack that with 2mm S8612 in the future for a good filter. Its roughly 24mm in diameter.

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Yep the last exchange was comical.

 

Customs was holding up my last filter? Maryland must have a customs office I don't know about between states. Or just making up stories (more likely) to delay and delay, to run out the return clock.

Then when I did return, no refund. But ebay steped in to correct it.

 

Also last couple of filters have either horrible glueing, bad visible or IR leaks.

 

Definitely stay away.

 

Bright side was a filter easily came apart and I was able to polish the 1mm thick UG11 glass. I now maybe able to stack that with 2mm S8612 in the future for a good filter. Its roughly 24mm in diameter.

 

My previous to last was a bit sour too...he sent wrong size, no response to a refund, but I had to pay for a replacement...??

A bit weird after buying from him for over 15 years...?

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Also, if you don't mind touching the violet sky a little to get a little more exposure speed (even faster than a Baader U):

OD5 suppression, 320nm to 405nm:

Hoya U-360 1.2mm + S8612 2mm (faster than the rest).

(Corrected the typo of the U-360 in the original post)

 

If you can accept a slightly bigger amount of violet in the image a stack of UG2A, 2mm + S8612, 2mm is even faster.

This is not a pure UV-stack as it transmit some of the light just beyond 400nm.

This stack give a more blue false colour-blue than the stack Steve suggest above, but it suppresses most if the visual light.

When used photographing flowers with a black UV-signature that is still really black.

 

For UV-portraits I think it will be difficult to tell the difference if you don't have something in the image giving false blue or violet colours.

 

Personally I prefer these filter-stacks even if they often are slower than dichroic filters like the Baader-U

 

However for portrait the speed of the filter and lens will be important.

If your lens can handle a small filter like the one Andy recommended above that will be the least expensive alternative.

Despite Davids troubles the seller still have a rather good feedback ratio on eBay.

This is the filter we are talking about:

https://www.ebay.com...e-/152779229306

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Since I've only been doing IR photography I don't have any experience with UV.

I would like to experiment with UV portraits so I went looking for a cheap UV filter, just to see if it's interesting enough to continue with. And of course the filters I found were these ZWB filters on eBay and Ali.

But when looking for information here on the forum I found these tests that Andrea did (thanks) and it turns out you can't use these filters for UV photography since they pass IR and you need a second filter to block that out or your pictures look more like an IR picture than a UV picture.

So then the question rose; what are these filters intended for then?

And what filter do I need to shoot UV portraits (at bargain level prices)?

 

Thanks in advance

 

If you are serious abut going into UV-photography and want to be able to experiment with different UV-pass filters the best thing you can do is to invest in a Schott S8612, 2mm.

Then you can try out al kinds of filters cheap or expensive UV-pass filters, without getting any IR-contamination.

 

That is not at bargain price level and except for the 330WB80 filter I do not think there are any alternatives except for two other filters from the same seller.

They are not as good as the one I posted a link to above, but even cheaper:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Optical-Filter-330WB80-24-5mm-Excite-Fluorescence-/152895097765

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Optical-Filter-330WB70-25mm-Excite-Fluorescence-High-Transmission-70-/152931458843

 

I had no problems with the seller a few years ago when buying from him.

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There are many options.

1. Buy a Baader venus filter, really really expensive.

2. Buy a custom UV filter, like LaLa U or straight edge U.

3. Work with a stack of 2mm S8612 + either hoya (u340 or u360) or Schott (ug11 or ug1) or Chinese (zwb1 or zwb2). You will need to figure out your ideal thickness.

4. Buy 8mm thick of U340, ug11 or Zwb1.

Point 4 isn't so crazy. You can buy 4 2mm thick 52mm diameter zwb1 filters for not too much and they do stack to cut out the IR. I have tested with almost 6mm thick (3 filters of zwb1 52mm 1.8mm +1.9mm +1.9mm)

 

I will no longer recommend the 330WB80 filter as have been having too many issues with the seller.

 

Point 4 IMHO is crazy if you make it by stacking many filters for two reasons.

  1. That stack will have a very low transmission due to all 8 air - glass surfaces. You loose around 40% of the light beside the filters internal filtering properties.
  2. That tick stack of those materials will transmit very little of the light in the upper UVA range where the camera's sensor is most sensitive and there normally are most UV-light available.

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Nisei, how 'UV' do you want your UV portraits to be? Are you needing something which is purely UV or are you happy to just emphasize the freckles and pigmentation in the skin to make it look more obvious than when imaged with normal visible light? If you don't need pure UV then your options increase and your price decreases.

 

Also do you currently have any filters which can block IR - S8612, BG39, BG38 etc? If you have one of these you are half way there, as you can block most of the IR leaks from cheap Chinese UV filters then.

 

Ulf recently mentioned a build for the 80mm Nikkor in another thread. This would be a great start point lens wise for UV - https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/index.php/topic/3773-early-pre-set-asahi-opt-pentax-macro-takumar-504-50mm-f4-as-uv-lens/page__view__findpost__p__34165 This is also a useful setup for non-UV macro work, so you could use it for other things if the UV portraits don't interest you.

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I'm going to try to summarize all the excellent advice from above. And comments are welcome, please, if I get something wrong or mis-stated.

 

First, remember that all UV-pass glass also passes IR and thus requires either a coating or stacking with an IR blocker.

 

Second, the "bargain" UV-pass glass offered from China has variable quality depending on who manufactured it. Stacking Z glass with an IR-blocker may not completely block some visible light leak. There is no way to tell in advance how much this might affect the UV photo. But if you are going to use Z glass, then stack it with an authentic Schott S-8612 (2mm) filter from Uviroptics/Ebay.

 

Least Expensive

Moderately Expensive

  • Well-tested, coated UV-Pass filter with excellent IR blocking, somewhat lower transmittance.
    A well-known French photographer, Pierre-Louis Ferrer, has used the KolariU for portraiture.

  • Well-tested, dichroic UV-Pass filters with excellent IR blocking and high transmittance.
    These filters record in the upper UV range which is good for UV portraiture.

Very Expensive

  • The granddaddy of all UV-Pass filters with good IR-blocking, very high transmittance.
    • BaaderU by Baader Planetarium: Can be purchased in the US from astronomy shops

Other Sources

Manufacturers of optical glass such as Thorlabs or Omega Optical and others sometimes offer production over-runs at bargain prices. You might have to rear-fit these filters because they usually have a very small diameter. There have been some disappointments in quality and customer service recently with the Omega over-runs.

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Andy Perrin

(Corrected the typo of the U-360 in the original post)

 

If you can accept a slightly bigger amount of violet in the image a stack of UG2A, 2mm + S8612, 2mm is even faster.

This is not a pure UV-stack as it transmit some of the light just beyond 400nm.

This stack give a more blue false colour-blue than the stack Steve suggest above, but it suppresses most if the visual light.

When used photographing flowers with a black UV-signature that is still really black.

 

For UV-portraits I think it will be difficult to tell the difference if you don't have something in the image giving false blue or violet colours.

 

Personally I prefer these filter-stacks even if they often are slower than dichroic filters like the Baader-U

 

However for portrait the speed of the filter and lens will be important.

If your lens can handle a small filter like the one Andy recommended above that will be the least expensive alternative.

Despite Davids troubles the seller still have a rather good feedback ratio on eBay.

This is the filter we are talking about:

https://www.ebay.com...e-/152779229306

Yeah, I've had many many filters from Omega on ebay with no trouble although I think the most recent one was in 2019. They ARE overruns/out of spec filters by definition (that is why they are cheap!). You cannot expect perfection at bargain prices. But he has always been responsive with me and helpful, and the company in general has gone out of their way to be helpful when I was buying a non-ebay (new) filter for SWIR work awhile back.

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Thank you all very much for the very informative advice. I really appreciate it!!!

Let me tell you I'm here ONLY because I'm interested in IR and UV from an artistic point of view.

I don't really care about accuracy as long as I'm getting results I like but I'm very interested in the science behind what I'm doing. So it's not that I don't care about looking at curves and reading about different filters. On the contrary, I find it very interesting.

 

JMC was asking a good question: how UV do my UV portraits need to be?

What I'm after is indeed emphasized freckles, so exposing some things that can't be seen with the naked eye. I can always enhance things in Lightroom/Photoshop to make it look more dramatic.

As I've said in other topics, I'm on a low budget nowadays but still want to continue with my hobby so I'm looking for less expensive ways to expand what I'm doing.

 

For my IR photography I'm thinking about getting a Schott KG3 filter to tone down IR in my IGR pictures and experiment with IR Crome-like filter combinations.

Would it make any sense to combine this KG3 with a ZWB to cut some IR and get a more UV-like result?

This would kill 2 birds with one stone for me and save me some money.

 

Again, thanks for all the responses!

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Andy Perrin
S8612 is the best IR cutter and the best long-term investment. I would not buy anything else as an IR cutter. (Sooner or later you will just end up buying S8612 anyhow, to troubleshoot.)
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Also I disagree about the 8mm U340. Look at these curves. The 2mm U340 stacked with 2mm S8612 will have similar maximum transmission as a 8mm U340. However, the peak location just shifts from maximum at roughly 360nm for 2mm U340 stacked with 2mm S8612, to 340nm for 8mm U340.

post-188-0-90924700-1584746709.png

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Andy Perrin
Yeah, wow, it looks like KG3 is quite transparent to IR. (You can't really "tone down" IR by a stop or two -- it has to be by OD4 or more really to be effective.)
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Yeah, wow, it looks like KG3 is quite transparent to IR. (You can't really "tone down" IR by a stop or two -- it has to be by OD4 or more really to be effective.)

 

KG3 (or any kind of KG) is not what you would use for Red/IR suppression for UV-only stacks. KG is the opposite of S8612, BG38 would even work better for IR suppression that KG.

KG is for gradual IR attenuation. Not for UV stacking. I advise you use S8612 for all UV stacking.

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Are the 8 mm Hoya U-340 and the Omega 330WB80 filters comparable in terms of higher UV rejection?

 

I am not sure which of these graphs applies for the particular 330WB80 you are talking about.

https://www.ebay.com...30WB80&_sacat=0

Someone please let me know which one of those graphs is the one you are talking about? Or please post the graph for the one you are talking about. Thanks.

 

But you can compare to this graph and decide.

post-87-0-23287200-1584760970.jpg

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It seems that U-340 blocks longwave UV better (basically nothing above 380 nm is transmitted). The huge thickness may counterbalance this advantage.
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Use cheap 2nd rate U330WB80 filters at your own risk, without any assurance of quality, IR blocking, visible blocking, or stability of the filter. Also there is no consistency in the filters. I have one 330WB80 Improved filter and the two subsequent ones I tried to order were completely different.

First one amazing. Made of 1mm UG11 glass and 1mm of excellence silver colored IR blocking dichroic layers.

Second one leaked visible and IR. Shouldn't happen for this type of filter, was made of 1mm UG11 glass and 1mm red dichroic layer. At that time return wasn't too painful.

Third one was 3 mm of Ug11 glass with 1mm red dichroic layer and horrible glueing resulting in only blurry images.

 

Over the return of the last filter comical discussion broke out between me and the seller. That I now will never buy anything from this person or potential group of people and definitely would not recommend others too.

 

 

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