• Ultraviolet Photography
  •  

Lee Blue filter test to get the Aerochrome Red in camera

Filters
149 replies to this topic

#121 Cadmium

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 24 May 2019 - 00:42

Very nice!

#122 yann_p

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Paris

Posted 26 May 2019 - 10:08

Hello all, nice to read all the research you made ! I followed the same path a few years ago when crafting the IRChrome filter.
For the goldie « in camera » render. Trick is : Tiffen 80A (B works aswell) + cheap FL filter and CWB on blueish-gray card. I’ll post pictures later when access to my computer.

Edited by yann_p, 26 May 2019 - 10:25.


#123 Cadmium

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 26 May 2019 - 22:42

Yann, Having no problems with the 729 stack, works like the Chrome for me, maybe better. Seems like a lot of the OOC Chrome examples look a little too orange to me.
However, this topic is not about Goldie, or about 80A/B, maybe try making a new topic.

Edited by Cadmium, 26 May 2019 - 23:06.


#124 dabateman

    Da Bateman

  • Members+G
  • 2,042 posts
  • Location: Maryland

Posted 27 May 2019 - 00:17

Yann,
Starting a new thread maybe agood idea. But what do you mean by cheap FL filter?
Like a fld? I have the 80A and will need to get around to testing that with my other larger blue filters. A 47 may also work and will need to test.

#125 yann_p

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Paris

Posted 27 May 2019 - 08:31

Hi Cadmium, thank for your reply. Yes I know that 729 works like a charm. Wratten blue/cyan filters like 38A are also excellent in doing this. The problem is that it's gels ! So first problem is that on full frame camera with wide angle lenses you have a lot of chromatic aberrations and these gels last maximum 10 years (less in general). An finding a durable glass solution is much more difficult, sadly. For the orangeish render you saw SOOC, it's only because WB /sidecar JPGs profile-parameters / ICC in-camera profile weren't set correcly by users.

Yes good idea for the other thread, I was replying to this because a few posts before, dabateman mentionned it a few posts before ;)
You'll find the discussion here about blue filters : https://www.ultravio...era-goldie-look

Edited by yann_p, 27 May 2019 - 12:17.


#126 Cadmium

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 27 May 2019 - 08:41

I have tried the Wratten 38A, and no, they don't work like the 729.
There is a difference between a Gel and a Polyester filter. They are not the same. We are not stacking or gluing gel filters here. Lee filters are not gel filters.
Go look it up.
Polyester is not a gel.
The Lee polyester doesn't do what you keep saying they do.
Have you ever laminated one?
You brought this all up on David Twede's blog, so why don't you start your own topic or go back to his blog, because I disagree with you.
Gel's are not the same a Polyester filters.
There is no chromatic abortion with this.
Have you ever glued a filter... yourself? Don't answer here, start a topic.
Yeah, a lot of your examples look rather orange to me.
"Users"? Some of the orange ones I have seen were posted by you.
You need your own topic.

Edited by Cadmium, 27 May 2019 - 08:46.


#127 yann_p

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Paris

Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:18

View PostCadmium, on 27 May 2019 - 08:41, said:

I have tried the Wratten 38A, and no, they don't work like the 729.
There is a difference between a Gel and a Polyester filter. They are not the same. We are not stacking or gluing gel filters here. Lee filters are not gel filters.
Go look it up.
Polyester is not a gel.
The Lee polyester doesn't do what you keep saying they do.
Have you ever laminated one?
You brought this all up on David Twede's blog, so why don't you start your own topic or go back to his blog, because I disagree with you.
Gel's are not the same a Polyester filters.
There is no chromatic abortion with this.
Have you ever glued a filter... yourself? Don't answer here, start a topic.
Yeah, a lot of your examples look rather orange to me.
"Users"? Some of the orange ones I have seen were posted by you.
You need your own topic.

Wow, sounds agressive, I preferred a lot more when you wrote me smileys * !

Sorry that my english terms differentiating gels and polyester weren't accurate enough (in France we use the word "gélatine" for everything wether it's designed for lenses or light sources - French is not as technically accurate as english is). And I used the word "stacking" because you used it here : https://www.ultravio...dpost__p__26144) and David uses the word "gel" for the ScubaBlue on his blog, so...

I'm debating about methods using blue filters to get the aerochrome red in-camera so why a new topic, this would be exacly the same subject ?

I laminated Wratten 38A / Rosco R2005 / LEE 116 / LEE 729 and many others respectively with KG3, KG5, BW489, JB470 and others IR cutters of various wavelengths. And you can't disagree on the durability of the polyester filters versus glass, that's an undeniable fact.
With laminating you have 3 layers versus only 2 with a glass-only solution so that adds up more probability of refraction making chromatic aberrations/fringing more likely to happen. If you don't have any chromatic aberrations on your shots, that would be great but that is sadly not true : even in low definition on this test shot I can spot them : https://www.ultravio...-1558477708.jpg
These filters are not designed/optimized for IR light.

Indeed 38A doesn't work like 729 (because the transmission curves are not the same)
But I maintain that the result is very close - (and the image is really not orange - I don't know which images I shot you were referring to, sorry) - example below (sidecar JPG) :
Posted Image

Your laminated filter ring sticker looks a lot like the ones "uviroptics" sells on eBay, I didn't know it was you Steve, the world is a small place, i've purchased quite often from you in the past 5 years, THANKS again because you allowed me a lot of my research in crafting Kolari's IRChrome :) In 2015, I ordered my first BG3 filter from you. Stacking it with a Hoya UV/IR cut filter put me on the tracks of the "Aerochrome render".

I'll post comparative shots of the Lee filter method vs IRChrome filter (on the dedicated thread, not here of course) with same camera/lens, you'll clearly see what I was mentionning on David's blog making you maybe change your disagreement.
On the shot here above, on the bottom left corner, around fine details you'll clearly see the problem. And it appears wether you use "gels" (like Rosco Cinegel filters) or "polyester" (like Wratten or Lee) but not with glass. (and there are no chromatic aberrations when I use the camera bare lens without any front filtration)

Edited by yann_p, 28 May 2019 - 06:12.


#128 yann_p

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Paris

Posted 27 May 2019 - 10:03

View Postdabateman, on 23 May 2019 - 16:43, said:

Cadmium,

Well I test different WB. These images actually look much better, white balanced off a darker grey chair. Chair is just darker than my 18 grey card.

Full spectrum EM1 with Olympus 14-42mm RII lens, at 20mm with GRB3 2mm and Scuba 729 filter:

Attachment LEE_729_GRB3_WBgrey.jpg

Attachment LEE_729_GRB3_WBgreyB.jpg

hi Dabateman,
Do you have any good address to share on where to purchase safely the GRB3 filter you got ? I want to confront it this whe KG3 in the field :)
Thanks a lot in advance !!

#129 dabateman

    Da Bateman

  • Members+G
  • 2,042 posts
  • Location: Maryland

Posted 28 May 2019 - 06:01

Welcome to the discussion Yann. Yes French language is fun. I still laugh at a French lighting guy I worked with whom would say to turn the light up louder. We did both lighting and sound.

#130 baker21

    Member

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 08 August 2019 - 21:42

Hey Guys,

New to community and love the content! Learning alot.

I went ahead and purchased several IR chrome filters from kolari. After seeing the pictures SOOC on the examples, I knew this is what I wanted.

Aerochrome look digitally SOOC was going to be AWESOME, but I was skeptical.... First the price was thru the roof... I know its glass but its still pricey.

and #2 NO TRANSMISSION curves...

So I waited for like 2 months for these IR chrome filters to come in and then I finally got them and I had to then wait for my new 2x full spectrum conversions to get done.

I did a sony a7r FS conversion... and also did a x100f conversion... a bayer.... and x trans...

Now I already tested a foveon... I had a sd quattro which I since sold... ( though regret it now) and also have a DP1m with hot mirror removed which I still own.

Foveon sensors to date have given me best results with a x1 green hoya + FLD filter and a custom WB = AMAZING SHOTS... best ones I got to date deep blues, dark reds...

The DP1M has more magenta and deeper darker reds... But for ease of use the sd quattro had DNG output sooc which was a nice workflow...

No doubt best results for AEROCHROME look have been with foveon sensors.

But then I seen IR chrome filter and bought 2x of them and spent for 2x conversions and thought I would get same results..

But so far nothing but disappointment. When I got the filter it said NDVI filter blue with a black glue filler covering it and then a ir chrome stamp.

So I assumed they sent me the wrong glass.. I waited 2 months, i thought maybe they sent out the bad quality glass knwoing it wasnt to spec.. but the thing is, they dont show no transmission curves what so ever which is really disappointing TBH...

They act like its top secret info.. the more I read on these sites, the more I see results of the 729 + KG3 in front, I believe KG3 is jsut a uv IR cut filter that is schott glass?

I cant seem to find it in 49mm threads atm.. Im looking for a finished solution.. Thats why I paid the premium for IR chrome.. But I talked to kolari and they said that they had extra rings of the blue NDVI filter that they had in stock.. so thats why they used those,,, rather than getting all new rings made I guess??

As for results on both the sony a7r ( bayer ) and the x100f (xtrans) fuji the results have both been disappointing and I am not getting reds AT ALL.. rather getting light oranges ...

I hate the light orange look especially after getting the deep dark reds with the foveon + x1 + fld !! If anyone knows how to get darker REDS on the IR chrome please LMK ..

I am all ears Yann... I am honestly thinking about returning my IR chrome filters b/c the results simply are not what they were made out to be with the examples shown...

Its very disapointing TBH...

#131 dabateman

    Da Bateman

  • Members+G
  • 2,042 posts
  • Location: Maryland

Posted 09 August 2019 - 03:06

Welcome to the forum Baker,
I would say if your are not happy with something to see if you can get it exchanged or returned. I got my EM1 converted by Kolari and have been extremely happy with their service. But I haven't bought any filters from them.

With the 729 way to get "kodachrome" the white balance target has been extremely critical. I had some good in camera reds using a slightly darker grey target, maybe 20% when stacked with 2mm Chinese GRB3 glass with my Em1.
I have been having a tougher time with genuine KG3 2mm glass with my Olympus E510 and a 8mm fisheye. I think the Chinese GRB3 leaks more IR than the genuine KG3 2mm I bought, so may need lighter grey target. Cadmium has had great success with KG3 on a Nikon, but it came down to really nailing the correct white balance target in camera.

Timber, has now had great success with 80B filter and the 729. The 80A didn't work for him, but 80C was ok. He stated that 80B is best. I am not sure how easy it has been to hit WB for him. I still haven't gotten around yet to playing with his Luts profiles in Affinity photo yet.

Nailing the correct white balance for the Kolari filter may also be the issue. Need direct sun on 12 to 20% grey target. I would play around with that to see if it helps. You can print out various grey on paper and try it out. I would first test the Kolari grey patch that they give you in the camera conversion brochure.


#132 Cadmium

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 09 August 2019 - 05:33

It is my 'opinion' that the Chrome filter is a Hoya B-410 + Schott KG3 stack (or equivalent glass types).
The two or three people who have purchased one and shared results here all show orange foliage which looks like my results when shooting with the B-410 + KG3 stack.
Also, the product photos of the filter glass color look much like the color of B-410. KG3 has almost no color.
Birna, and Andy Broomé are two people here that come to mind, Birna is not very happy with the filter. Birna knows what she is doing with white balance and the rest, so... her tests should be respected highly.

Try the 729, it is fun. Don't bother gluing it, just cut some with scissors and put it in an empty ring.
White balance in camera on a gray or white card.

Edited by Cadmium, 10 August 2019 - 01:40.


#133 Andy Perrin

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,341 posts
  • Location: United States

Posted 09 August 2019 - 06:49

I have never played with the Kolari IR Chrome filter. I use Tiffen #12 and then I have a special processing procedure that I wrote up in a thread on there if you want it. It's not particularly simple, but I have automated it with MATLAB (programming language), although it can also be performed entirely in Photoshop if desired.

#134 Cadmium

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 09 August 2019 - 07:08

Which brings up a point I forgot to mention:
There is no EIR/Aerochrome single filter or stack, not the 729 stack, or any other that will perform true EIR/Aerochrome.
The only way to do EIR/Aerochrome is like Andy does and other post processing methods, which transpose IR to Red, Red to Green, and Green to Blue.
729, and the like will only suppress visual red, and replace red with IR, not shifting the visual red or green.
729 and Chrome are NOT true EIR simulation.

Edited by Cadmium, 09 August 2019 - 07:10.


#135 yann_p

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Paris

Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:02

View PostCadmium, on 09 August 2019 - 07:08, said:

Which brings up a point I forgot to mention:
There is no EIR/Aerochrome single filter or stack, not the 729 stack, or any other that will perform true EIR/Aerochrome.
The only way to do EIR/Aerochrome is like Andy does and other post processing methods, which transpose IR to Red, Red to Green, and Green to Blue.
729, and the like will only suppress visual red, and replace red with IR, not shifting the visual red or green.
729 and Chrome are NOT true EIR simulation.

Can't disagree... And even the method of transposition is not correct because of the RGB sensor versus film layers technology.
IRChrome is more a "IGB" transposition-method as more scientifically correct digital-Aerochrome would be "IRG"

Posted Image

Posted Image

The green/cyan filter method (no channel swap), the Yellow filter method (channel swap), the assembling method are various ways of trying to emulate the look but even if some of them are more "true to the original", none of them would work because digital sensor capture a bit of IR in every channels and the 2 pictures assembly doesn't allow for a lot of subjects. This kind of sensor would help, but it's only prototype (Olympus) !

Posted Image

Edited by yann_p, 21 October 2019 - 09:14.


#136 Cadmium

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:06

The B-410 orange look, looks good too, but I like red better. :smile:
I wonder if you could explain to Birna how to white balance his to make it red? Or someone else?

Edited by Cadmium, 21 October 2019 - 07:11.


#137 yann_p

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Paris

Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:14

View PostCadmium, on 21 October 2019 - 07:06, said:

The B-410 orange look, looks good too, but I like red better. :smile:
I wonder if you could explain to Birna how to white balance his to make it red? Or someone else?

For WB, I printed a lot of different slightly colored grey patches (from reddish to yellowish or greenish) and tested a lot. Of course it depends on the sensor you use. With my Canon FS camera, in order to shift the orange look to something more red I need to cool the whole image. In order to cool it, I make a WB on something warm : so a grey that tends towards yellow/orange/red does the trick. Depending on the sensor and outside lighting conditions the coloration should be more or less vibrant.

#138 Cadmium

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 21 October 2019 - 07:17

Sounds good Yann, and when I see people showing red I will be impressed. :smile:

#139 yann_p

    Member

  • Members
  • 23 posts
  • Location: Paris

Posted 17 May 2020 - 13:59

View Postbaker21, on 08 August 2019 - 21:42, said:

Hey Guys,

New to community and love the content! Learning alot.

I went ahead and purchased several IR chrome filters from kolari. After seeing the pictures SOOC on the examples, I knew this is what I wanted.

Aerochrome look digitally SOOC was going to be AWESOME, but I was skeptical.... First the price was thru the roof... I know its glass but its still pricey.

and #2 NO TRANSMISSION curves...

So I waited for like 2 months for these IR chrome filters to come in and then I finally got them and I had to then wait for my new 2x full spectrum conversions to get done.

I did a sony a7r FS conversion... and also did a x100f conversion... a bayer.... and x trans...

Now I already tested a foveon... I had a sd quattro which I since sold... ( though regret it now) and also have a DP1m with hot mirror removed which I still own.

Foveon sensors to date have given me best results with a x1 green hoya + FLD filter and a custom WB = AMAZING SHOTS... best ones I got to date deep blues, dark reds...

The DP1M has more magenta and deeper darker reds... But for ease of use the sd quattro had DNG output sooc which was a nice workflow...

No doubt best results for AEROCHROME look have been with foveon sensors.

But then I seen IR chrome filter and bought 2x of them and spent for 2x conversions and thought I would get same results..

But so far nothing but disappointment. When I got the filter it said NDVI filter blue with a black glue filler covering it and then a ir chrome stamp.

So I assumed they sent me the wrong glass.. I waited 2 months, i thought maybe they sent out the bad quality glass knwoing it wasnt to spec.. but the thing is, they dont show no transmission curves what so ever which is really disappointing TBH...

They act like its top secret info.. the more I read on these sites, the more I see results of the 729 + KG3 in front, I believe KG3 is jsut a uv IR cut filter that is schott glass?

I cant seem to find it in 49mm threads atm.. Im looking for a finished solution.. Thats why I paid the premium for IR chrome.. But I talked to kolari and they said that they had extra rings of the blue NDVI filter that they had in stock.. so thats why they used those,,, rather than getting all new rings made I guess??

As for results on both the sony a7r ( bayer ) and the x100f (xtrans) fuji the results have both been disappointing and I am not getting reds AT ALL.. rather getting light oranges ...

I hate the light orange look especially after getting the deep dark reds with the foveon + x1 + fld !! If anyone knows how to get darker REDS on the IR chrome please LMK ..

I am all ears Yann... I am honestly thinking about returning my IR chrome filters b/c the results simply are not what they were made out to be with the examples shown...

Its very disapointing TBH...

Hello baker21,

I can readilly understand your disappointment. Would you please send me some of your RAW files ? I'll explain my workflow.
I'm already doing in on this Youtube Channel (but in french) https://youtu.be/bZ68skF59MQ?t=10234
The sensor technology here makes different results. If you use IRChrome with Canon / Nikon / Fuji / Sony you'll have very different outputs. But the same is also true if you use a Lee 729 Scuba gel...

#140 Nisei

    Member

  • Members+G
  • 120 posts
  • Location: the Netherlands

Posted 28 May 2020 - 09:28

Finally found my filter swatch books.
729 does indeed give nice results.
Will experiment with video and see how it goes.

Posted Image