Whitebalancing for Insect Vision with Sony Nex7

[msubees]

Stupid me, I though Nex7 would give me more pixels and lower noises (true) due to a larger sensor (APS-C size instead of micro 3/4), so I unloaded my G5 (two of them!) and their filters and got this Nex7.

 

Then the long journey to get the "Bug green" with S8612 (or something similar to it, QB21, which is actually not quite the same as S8612) and UG5. I just could not get that green. Sometimes I get a hint of it, but after whitebalancing with "Virgin Teflon", the green is gone.

 

-1. This is an evening primrose from my front yard. Using autoWB I got some green veins.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01237-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682781

 

0. but after correcting the color in Photo Ninja (by clicking on a white teflon using the same filters), the green is all gone!

 

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01237_v1.jpg?m=1434682769

I decided that it was the filter, so now I have true S8612 (2mm), still no green. Then I suspect it was my camera, or not the right flowers (perhaps not all flowers will give green when it is UV dark and white/yellow under visible light).

 

There was only one trick I did not try, that is to sand the Teflon. So tonight I did that, and then also added 2 EV when doing the custom WB.

 

Right away, I noticed that the camera reported back as 8300K which is very different from the usual 3500K I get.

 

Then I aimed my camera with a few test subjects: Voila! there is the green color on a birdsfoot trefoil, some green on an egg plant, and finally the daylily that is so pretty with insect vision!

 

With the Panasonic DMC-G5, I was told to underexpose 1-2 EV to get proper WB during the "set" procedure. So with Nex7, it is the opposite! I tried -2, -1, 0 before, but never +2! and I wasted so much time (like 2-3 months) and agony!!

 

So, my theory does hold right most of the time: if a flower is white or yellow but black under UV, usually it turns green under insect vision (with the right white balance!)...

 

1. This is the first flower today that I saw some green, bird's foot trefoil, a legume.

 

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01280-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682829

 

2. Egg plang flower, also a hint of green.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01283_v1.jpg?m=1434682825

 

3. Now the question is how do I get proper UV whitebalance? This one will never have the right UV color?

 

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01285-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682835

 

 

4. The very pretty green with a daylily. I remember last year I saw inside the corolla was UV dark, so I was betting that it should be green under insect vision, yes! This is with S8612 (2mm) + UG5 (1.5 mm)

 

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01289-wb-test.JPG

 

5. I then tried QB21 (1.5mm + 2mm) + UG5, I get the same pretty green!

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01290-wb-test.JPG

 

6. does this look good enough for a UV photo? This was taken using the insect vision WB (8300k) and then removing the yellowing tint on the teflon using photoninja licking tool. I need to reshoot tomorrow after using a custom WB for UV with the right filters.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01291-wb-test_v2.jpg?m=1434684929

 

7. A coreopsis (tickseed) that is yellow under visual light, which I expected it to be green. finally here!

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01301-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682795

 

8. A composite with various flowers.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01306-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682784

 

9. Insect vision at 8300k.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01307-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682772

 

10. Well, I have to test my theory...so I dialed to 0 EV, and custom WBed against the same Teflon...got 3600k. The green is almost gone, with more yellow...

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01310-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682782

 

11. As a scientist, I want to repeat the experiment! so again + 2EV, but this time I got 9000k instead of 8300k. I exposed with -2.3EV on this one. so it is darker.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01314-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682786

 

12. Another try, I got 8800k, so it is variable. This is all done around 6-7:30 pm with no direct sun (cloudy). But the green is still there.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01315-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682774

 

13. Finally, an evening primrose with green veins.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/DSC01326-wb-test.JPG?m=1434682798

 

14. This one is not as pretty as one I shot in Montana (UM campus).

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Filter-thickness-test/P1120337-S.JPG?m=1410978698

 

To close, it might be a mistake to switch from G5 which has 2 custom WB to a Nex7, which has only 1. I will try to experiment if I can use the color temp setting to 3500K and thus use that for UV. It seems if I use a wrong WB setting, I cannot use clicking tool in PhotoNinja to get the right WB, for UV and for Insect Vision. This is what I had been trying to do the last 2-3 months! with no success. Last resort is to sell this Nex7 and get a GH3 or GH4, which has 4 custom WBs! That would be nice!

[colinbm]

Yes Zach, CWB drives me to distraction too ;)

I have been using a difuser of special PTFE from eBay seller UVIROptics to get a reliable CWB.

Col

[msubees]

Col,

 

thanks. I think it is just a hiccup of Nex7. even if I used your disc, I would have had trouble doing the WB. I used the same teflon as last year. .

 

Zach

 

Yes Zach, CWB drives me to distraction too ;)

I have been using a difuser of special PTFE from eBay seller UVIROptics to get a reliable CWB.

Col

[msubees]

I did some more tests this morning.

My theory was that it should be easier to do UV whitebalance, compared to insect vision, due to the more colors in the later.

 

But I guess I was wrong.

 

the following photo shows (from top to bottom).

1. autowhite balance, S8612 2mm, iso 3200 (all photos at this ISO), visual

2. s8612+zwb1, custom wb, 2800k, G7, UV

3. same filter, but using 2800K, G7 in Color Temp WB option to replicate the 2. but slightly different tint. did further clicking WB in PN, but not identical to 2.

4. s8612+UG5, insect vision. custom WB, resulting in 8400k, G7.

5. same filters, color temp WB, 8800k, A7GA (might have a typo?)

6. same filters, Color temp WB, 8800k, G7

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/Nex7-white-balance/uvbug-whitebalance-s.jpg?m=1434724275

I think I am getting closer, there must be a (relatively easy) way to remove the tint in PS? I could not get Andrea's method work to change hues in photoninja.

[JCDowdy]

You might ask Alex H, one of our expert members experienced with the Sony Nex series cameras.

[Andrea B.]

Zach, you are doing great at working this out. Carry on!!!!

 

*****************

 

Zach writes: It seems if I use a wrong WB setting, I cannot use clicking tool in PhotoNinja to get the right WB, for UV and for Insect Vision.

 

I must make sure you are editing the raw version of your NEX photos in PN? You aren't trying edits on Jpgs, are you?

And I must make sure you are dragging the PN Color Correction tool across an area (usually just a small area, of course)

and not just clicking on one tiny area?

 

If the answers are Yes I am dragging on a raw version of the foto, then read on. :D

 

*****************

 

The other day I showed Col via Raw Digger that if no changes happen in PN's color correction tool, then that is telling you that the in-camera white balance was correct and no further white balance changes are possible with the click-white white balance (i.e. "auto" white balance).

 

So the only way to change the colours in such a photo is by using other editing tools.

Here is the link to that post: http://www.ultraviol...-dmc-g3-camera/

 

As an example of other editing tools: in Photoshop you would create a Hue/Saturation layer, select a Channel to work on, and move the Hue slider until it produced a tint you could live with. So, yes, try Photoshop if you have it. Photoshop Elements (less expensive) has that tool also.

 

*****************

 

But Zach solved this problem another way by giving up on the white-balance method (the right thing to do) and trying different in-camera Temperature settings. Very good!!!!

 

*****************

 

So what do we have showing up in Zach's Insect Vision photos?

 

First the UV-absorbing areas.

 

Yellow UV-absorbing areas [-UV-B+G+R] --> false-green, center of daylily, entire coreopsis, primrose stamens.

Purple UV-absorbing areas [-UV+B-G+r] --> false-blue, center of purple geranium.

White UV-absorbing areas [-UV+B+G+R] --> false-cyan, throat of bellflower. [Or would we call this "bee white" ?? :D I think that's what the bee guys call it. ]

 

I'd say that it looks like the 5th strip in your composite has gotten the UV-absorbing Insect Vision false-colours basically correct. The one you labeled [5. same filters, color temp WB, 8800k, A7GA].

 

Now for the UV-reflecting areas.

 

Yellow UV-reflecting areas [+UV-B+G+R] --> UV-green, on daylily petals and primrose petals. The Insect Vision colours are false-orange-ish (daylily) and false-yellow (primrose). Does this make sense? Yes. The visible yellow colour of that daylily has a bit more orange in it, so it has a representation more like [+UV-B+g+R], so it makes sense that its false-colour moves towards false-orange.

 

White UV-reflecting areas [+UV+B+G+R] --> UV-cyan, or "bee white", the PTFE disc, which I am assuming manages to arrive at a false-white after white balance efforts.

 

Purple UV-reflecting areas [+UV+B-G+r] --> UV-blue, on geranium petals. The Insect Vision colour is a false-magenta [+B-G+R]. Now this one is almost a little troubling because what we "should" be seeing here is more of a false-purple (less false-red) [+B-G+r]. However, given that the camera has not yet been profiled after conversion, I am not surprised that the false-magenta shows up. Purples and magentas are notoriously bad to deal with in non-converted cameras. So the problem is compounded when the camera is converted and its software still thinks it is dealing with un-converted input. Just a conjecture, of course. This slight error in false colour could be repaired easily enough with a profile application or simply by using some other editing tool to pull the magenta a little more towards purple.

 

And it looks like the 5th 4th strip in your composite has gotten the UV-absorbing Insect Vision false-colours close to correct.

So, Zach, hurrah !!!! Your persistence is paying off. :D I do think you have gotten your NEX to behave pretty well with the Insect Vision filter.

 

As a side note, Zach's effort here has confirmed my bee colour chart that I made aeons ago. I had fun doing that. No claims by me to any originality on that. The purpose was not that, just to clarify bee vison and its possible representation in my own mind. The charts were in this thread: http://www.ultraviol...-colour-charts/

 

I'm looking forward to more interesting work from all our Insect Vision enthusiasts. ;)

 

[Please let me know of any typos or errors. I am having a bit of an eye thing happening, so may have missed something. Thanks!]

[Andrea B.]

I would be remiss were I not to reiterate the suggestion that a Color Checker card profile be created and applied in either Lightroom or Photo Ninja so that any colour drift due to camera conversion is eliminated.

[msubees]

Thank you, Andrea! Yes, I should have switched to raw, I guess. I had trouble with GMC-G5 raw files in photoninja -- some files opened up and exposure totally messed up (like +4 ev). so I switched to jepg only. I have not tried raw yet with Nex7. I thought PhonoNinja is magical in that it can fix wb in jpeg files, so I did not need raw! Today I found that a couple of times, the concrete worked better than my teflon ;)

 

In #5, I can see some reddisht tint, but it wont go away even if I dragged an area to WB in "color correction". Yes, I usually drag an area that I assume should be neutral. but I need to move to raw files, I guess.

[Andrea B.]

The fascinating flower in Zach's work above is that Shasta Daisy in Post #1, Photos 8,9,10,11 and 12.

 

C. leucanthemum (aka L. vulgare) and its cousin C. nipponicum, are both white with yellow centers.

In UV they are UV-dark on rays and center.

But in Bee Vision the rays are bright false-cyan with green centers.

 

I just think that is a cool flower in UV and in Bee Vee. ;)

[Andrea B.]

oh hi Zach.

 

Yes you must absolutely only work with RAW files if you hope to be able to achieve any decent white balance and colour shifts. Most converter/editors cannot do anything with a JPG. Photo Ninja can do a few things to a JPG, but even it gets very stuck sometimes. Everything gets worse for UV JPGs because working in UV requires large colour shifts when white balancing. Same goes for Insect Vision.

 

Thank you for letting me know, because I was really puzzled as to why you were not getting certain results!!

Now that you know, go repeat these great experiments with RAW files and post them. Let us see if you get better results, OK!!??!!

[msubees]

Andrea,

 

Thank you! I tried raw today, and it is much better! I can almost set WB to any and recover them by applying the right color temp (copying settings), not exactly the same, but very close. Strangely today when I tried to set the custom WB for UV, I got 8800k also, which is strange. I should have get around 3500k.

 

Basically now I can use color temp for UV (set around 3500k), and custom for insect vision. then adjust in PN.

 

I tried the "Color enhancement/hue shift" and still do not see changes at all visually, even saturation. strange.

 

I tried a hawkweed, the green is quite weak but it is there. I found a tiny Potentilla (recta?) and a nice touch of green toward the center.

[Andrea B.]

Great news, Zach!!

 

I'm not sure why the Color Enhancement tool is not working for you. I will look to see if I have a Sony image file somewhere in my files to test on.

 

Here is a little tutorial.

• Select a colour (reference hue) you wish to change and click on its patch.
  Here I clicked the Magenta patch which is reference hue 325.
  

• Move a slider. Here I desaturated Magenta by -30.
  

• The selected patch will change colour in the lower half
  when any of the sliders for Hue, Saturation or Lightness are moved.
  

• Click Apply to apply the change and return to the main page.
  

• If the colour is not present in the image, then of course you won't see any changes in the image.
  

[msubees]

More tests today, I can get exactly the same color back, even if I used "auto wb" for a UV shot, as long as I copy the settings for a good UV-whitebalanced raw file. Clicking an white area would work too...so if I used raw file in the start, I would have needed to do all these studies ;) :D. simply clicking on the Teflon would have worked! but not for jpeg. I normally shot raw for my Nikon D700. But for some reason G5 raw files gave me some problem with PN so I switched to jpeg only. With G5, I did not have a problem of adusting colors since the in camera WB was quite close for both UV and insect vision.

 

I tried to build a profile but without a color checker, it cannot be done, it appears. So far, copy settings seems to work fine.

[JCDowdy]

I never had any problems with Panasonic files in PN. What sort of problem are you having with G5 files?

[msubees]

I had no problem with G5 either, even in jpeg. I had problems with Sony Nex7, because I was using jpeg only and it had trouble restoring the color. Specifically I could not see the green in insect vision, even if I used in camera WB. This was due a "glitch" in the Nex7, later when I added 2 EV during costom WB, I could see green. Now I use raw and this is no longer a problem.

 

For Nex7, the camera's color temp wb does not totally replicate the custom wb, even if I input identical parameters there (usually 8300-9000k + G7). it gives a slight tint to UV or insect vision photos. but PN can correct this.

 

I never had any problems with Panasonic files in PN. What sort of problem are you having with G5 files?

[msubees]

I have one chinese cabbage blooming in my garden, I got the nice green center!

 

1. normal vision.

 

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/UV/DSC01382_bokchoy-vis-s.jpg?m=1434984465

2. under UV

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/UV/DSC01384-bokchoy-uv-s.jpg?m=1434984478

 

3. Insect vision.

http://ww2.beetography.com/var/resizes/UV/DSC01383_bokchoy-bugvision-s.jpg?m=1434984473

[msubees]

Andrea,

 

why when I render the raw file as jpeg (at 1:1), from Sony's Nex7, that I get only about 7 megpix total (3242 x 2374). I thought it has 24 megpix. If I open a jpeg shot by the camera, it says it has 6000 x 4000, this is correct.

 

I would need to do use a raw converter from Sony, make it into Jpeg, then use PN, would i get the larger jpeg?

[JCDowdy]

I have one chinese cabbage blooming in my garden, I got the nice green center!

 

These look good now, seems you have solved the problem!

[Andrea B.]

Why when I render the raw file as jpeg (at 1:1), from Sony's Nex7, that I get only about 7 megpix total (3242 x 2374). I thought it has 24 megpix. If I open a jpeg shot by the camera, it says it has 6000 x 4000, this is correct.

 

I don't really know why this is happening.

Perhaps you have resizing set somewhere?

Are we talking about Photo Ninja here?

Try again:

• Click Down Arrow which has the + sign beside to bring up the full save dialog.
  
• Then make sure the following settings are made (along with other choices):
  
  • Preset > Full Resolution JPEG
    
  • Format > jpg
    
  • Size > 1:1
    

I just tried this with a raw RW2 Sony Nex-7 file and everything worked correctly.

[msubees]

Andrea,

 

Thanks. It is Photo Ninja here. The one at my home laptop works correctly. The one in my office did not today. Perhaps I had the preset set for something else?

 

Zach

Why when I render the raw file as jpeg (at 1:1), from Sony's Nex7, that I get only about 7 megpix total (3242 x 2374). I thought it has 24 megpix. If I open a jpeg shot by the camera, it says it has 6000 x 4000, this is correct.

 

I don't really know why this is happening.

Perhaps you have resizing set somewhere?

Are we talking about Photo Ninja here?

Try again:

• Click Down Arrow which has the + sign beside to bring up the full save dialog.
  
• Then make sure the following settings are made (along with other choices):
  
  • Preset > Full Resolution JPEG
    
  • Format > jpg
    
  • Size > 1:1
    

I just tried this with a raw RW2 Sony Nex-7 file and everything worked correctly.

[Andrea B.]

It is not so easy to see what the preset is when using the left-most render arrow. I've had surprises from time-to-time and had to reset my auto-render.

[msubees]

Ok, it is because I was using an old version of PN, 1.2.4. The newer one (1.2.5.) now works fine. I am guessing that the older version did not like the Nex7 (too new?). Problem solved.

[Andrea B.]

Yay!!!!!