Canon 1D Mark IV unmodified for UV

[Damon]

Thanks Andrea.

Some thoughts:

Re: When you are making a Visible shot with Visible illumination...

This is true except that I am using an El-Nikkor as the lens--but I also putting a UV-IR-Cut filter on that

 

Re: Newer vintage...

I think mine is from 2011

 

Re:When you are making a Visible shot with Ultraviolet illumination (using any camera) ...

Both my Blak-Rays and lens are filtered (I have not done the chrome ball test on the el-nikkor/Uv/IR cut filter combo)

 

I have a 4 day weekend to do some IPA study time, I mean UV shack time.

 

-D

[colinbm]

"Both my Blak-Rays and lens are filtered (I have not done the chrome ball test on the el-nikkor/Uv/IR cut filter combo)"

The Blak-Ray's are filtered with 'Woods Glass' ie LW UV & some blue pass, visible block, IR pass :P

I don't know what IPA is ?

Col

[Andrea B.]

IPA = India Pale Ale ?? :) :P

[colinbm]

:P & I thought the guy was getting all intelligent.....

[Damon]

I should have remembered the Wood's Glass properties. Right you are.

 

Just so were on the same page here:

To help determine my desired IQ I will use my IPA in conjunction with my IR testing to be sure how it's affecting my CMOS CFA.

BTW, Auto WB in UVIVFL works well with my DSLR.

 

I will have my R72 and 830 filters tomorrow

 

-D

[JCDowdy]

Both my Blak-Rays and lens are filtered..........

 

Yes they are filtered with Woods's Glass which passes plenty NIR.

 

Here is a plot plucked from another website (interesting site, guy actually builds his own UV lens).

 

[Andrea B.]

Col, nice find of Nelson's website. I'm going to go check whether I have a link for that in the Sticks. I will have to read through it in more detail when I get some time.

 

You can indeed build your own UV-capable lens. It will have some chromatic aberration of course. Somewhere on Klaus' blog, he shows some photos from the one he built.

[Damon]

Canon 1D Mark IV IR & Campaign update! :)

 

Super quick but more later--

--Captured Nice? IR using hoya RM72

--Captured IR using Infrared Filter 830 [# 093 (87C/RG830) (make--Jos. Schneider Optische Werke Kreuznach-Germany)] Thick Pitch Black Filter

Image not quite as nice but sill visible--just looks noisier as I had to double my iso to get it...

 

Didn't know what to do about WB and had no time to look it up but the flower is white(ish) in IR is all I can say.

 

That's all I got right now and I don't know much about IR but I am here to learn. I will post my images as soon as I return. How exciting!

 

-D

[colinbm]

Damon, In IR you can use Sunlight WB.

Your J221 LW UV meter can measure IR with the clear UV blocker cover in place.

Col

[Damon]

Unmodified Canon 1D Mark IV Sunflower Quadriptych

 

Note: there is too much blue in the UVIVFL picture. It's too saturated. It had good blue but not that much. I will post a corrected one when I get time.

 

The IR experiment was a success. The Hoya RM72 filter was dandy. The 830nm pitch black filter also worked but an edge under as far as quality of the photo due to increase in iso and detail seems to be going away as well. But clearly visible--sensor is seeing into that range apparently. No additional benefit was seen though with this flower. It's not like something "new" appeared.

So at least in my shack, I am able to capture all 4--Vis, Uv, UVIVFL, & IR with this setup.

Aside from the super cool IR, what blew me away was the UVIVFL--Astonishing. Over the top that one is. I had no idea sunflowers looked like that under UVIVFL. You can see the bulls-eye but it's yellowish/brown.

 

Note:

So after getting a thumbs up for remembering flowers pre-Valentine's Day--I took another look at them and thought, hmm I wonder what they would look like in the UV torture shack. I took the bouquet and scampered out to my lair and went about my business blasting a Day Lily, some roses, and another little gerardia looking thing.

Got a bunch of pics and brought them back in--no problem. Lily looked amazing.

Wake up today and the Day Lily is dying, the roses are crinkled up, and the gerardia is limped over 90 degrees. Whoa!!

("Gee honey, yeah I know that's weird isn't it". "I agree, they should last longer than that".) :)

 

 

Visible: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, Halogen light Unfiltered, 1/40 s @ f/11 ISO 100, Baader UV-IR-Cut Filter, Adjusted WB for Unfiltered Halogen source

 

 

UV: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, 1/80 s @ f/8 ISO 1600, Baader U filter, WB color temp 2500K, 1 Click Photo Ninja

 

 

IR: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, Halogen light Unfiltered, 1/80 s @ f/8 ISO 1250, Hoya RM72 Filter , Daylight/Sunny WB, 1 Click Photo Ninja

 

 

UVIVFL: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 5 Blak-Rays B-100AP, Complete Darkness, 5 s @ f/5.6 ISO 400, Baader UV-IR-Cut Filter, Auto WB,

 

 

 

Quadriptych

 

 

 

 

-D

[colinbm]

Nice bunch of shots for Valentines Day Damon

I guess some didn't like the UV hit......

 

Can you do something for us to see please......

Your setup with the, "Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 5 Blak-Rays B-100AP, Complete Darkness, 5 s @ f/5.6 ISO 400, Baader UV-IR-Cut Filter, Auto WB."

Can you do that exact same setup with the RM72 on the filter stack please ?

Cheers

Col

[Andrea B.]

Well my deario you just learned one of the side effects of blasting certain flowers with lots o' UV and other hot lights!!!!! All in a good cause to we who are intrepid UV adventurers. Please do get the SigOth a new bouquet when the roads become passable again . And promise to leave the new fleurs alone!

[Andrea B.]

I second Col's request for an attempt at inducing IR fluor. It will act as a test of your system - or might produce a surprise.

[Damon]

Thanks!

Sure I can do that. Right now it's 8 degrees Fahrenheit and 30 mph winds. I need to wait a bit to get out to my shack. Looks like the sunflower survived the blasting yesterday.

 

I see we are trying to determine if Mr. Invasive IR light is getting through to my sensor even with the Baader UV-IR-Cut Filter. This should determine that--if I see any image then IR is getting through. A good test.

That is of course, only if some one can guarantee me that the Hoya RM72 is not passing some visible light...

 

Couple questions:

 

What is it about Infrared light that makes it so hard to block?

So if a good bona-fide filter blocks say, for examples sake--830nm and below. Does it matter how much IR hits that filter below 830nm? So it will block all IR below 830nm except if the quantity of said light reaches a threshold?

How can IR get through the Baader UV-IR cut filter anyway? Isn't blocking what it is designed to do? What's the point is buying these filters if they don't work?

I will also shoot the Blak-Rays through my 100mm macro that I have been using like you suggested and see if my meter moves. I also will put the Blak-Ray right up to the meter.

Thanks for these suggestions.

 

Will let you know the results soon.

I love these experiments!

 

-D

[Damon]

You know, when I read his suggestion, that came to mind but I dismissed it. I thought he was still bustin' my chops claiming a IR leak somewhere. Which there still may be I suppose! :)

 

-D

[nfoto]

Filtration is about attenuation of certain range(s) of the spectrum. A perfect on/off 'switch', or brick-wall filter, is not possible. All you can do is getting as much attenuation as possible with as steep slope as possible. Thus with the best of the dichroic filters you can get 4-5 orders of magnitude of attenuation outside the passband, with a transition region not that many nm wide, which is pretty impressive. That attenuation represents many aperture stops (10^-3 is approx. 10 stops to give an indication).

 

One reason for UV bandpass filters leaking IR is that they usually are silver based and thus inherit a secondary transmission lobe in the near IR. In order to cut further down on these unwanted spectral regions, very sophisticated filter stacks are required. To illustrate how efficient a Baader U filter is in preventing IR is that firing an SB-14 with an SW-5IR filter over the flash directly into the lens (with filter in front) at close range makes a near jet black image.

[Damon]

Thanks for the explanation and good to see you back in action. That is impressive when I look at it that way.

One last question regarding filters:

Does it make any difference in the attenuation, stacking more than one of the same kind of filter? ie. 2 UV-IR-Cut filters are better then one?

 

I just did a mess of different shots following Col's idea and some others. I will post the pics and I hope you guys can help me make sense of them.

 

-D

[colinbm]

Thanks Damon

Looking forwards to the results.

Col

[Damon]

Orchid and some Experimentation

 

Note to prospective DYI-er's in the Northern Hemisphere making a studio not attached to your house:

Put in a real heater!

About the only thing I can't complain about is the beer stays very cold. The best I ever had though was warm and in Germany.

Space heater doesn't hack it when it's 6 degrees and windy. With all this UV flying around I will be the only person getting a tan while a blizzard is going on.

 

Visible: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, Unfiltered Halogen light, 2 s @ f/16 ISO 200, Adjusted WB for Halogen

 

 

UV: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, 1/125 s @ f/8 ISO 1600, Baader U filter, WB color temp 2500K, 1 Click Photo Ninja

 

 

IR: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, Halogen light Unfiltered, 1/100 s @ f/8 ISO 1000, Hoya RM72 Filter , Daylight/Sunny WB, 1 Click Photo Ninja

 

 

UVIVFL: Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 6 Blak-Rays B-100AP, Complete Darkness, 1.6 s @ f/5.6 ISO 400, Baader UV-IR-Cut Filter, Auto WB

 

 

Quadriptych:

 

 

 

Some Testing:

Below are a few images with various filters being swapped and various light sources being used. If you can understand what they mean, please let me know.

The first 2 below were taken of the Sunflower.

 

1. Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 6 Blak-Rays B-100AP, Complete Darkness, 5 s @ f/5.6 ISO 1250, Baader UV-IR-Cut & Hoya RM72 Filters, Auto WB

 

 

2. Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 6 Blak-Rays B-100AP, Complete Darkness, 5 s @ f/5.6 ISO 8000, Baader UV-IR-Cut & Hoya RM72 Filters, Auto WB

 

 

3. Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, Halogen light Unfiltered, 10 s @ f/5.6 ISO 3200, Baader UV-IR-Cut & Hoya RM72 Filters, Daylight/Sunny WB

Anything below this iso I had a hard time seeing the flower--almost black. Any faster shutter and the iso began to climb. Although with the shots you will see after this one--at some point, it didn't seem to matter what iso I used, the image stayed the same. No benefit to increasing iso. Wierd. What's up with that?

Also, they were noisy and had no particular color so I just went to black & white. I de-noised some but it didn't help--garbage pics as far as quality goes. Keep in mind, these images were pretty dark--I raised them up some so they could be viewed ok.

 

I have found, at least this with camera a higher iso combined with a shorter shutter speed is optimal. Low iso longer shutter is worse for image quality and impractical with my flashes. It might just be that this type of photography (UV, IR) is noisy by default and for me just gets noisier the longer the shutter stays open. On top of that, unless I can fire my flashes off twice, it makes little difference to keep the shutter open for light that isn't coming. If I had some Broncolors or something like that then the story changes maybe. I could use the Blak-Rays at the same time but I have been assuming I won't have them outside.

4. Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, Halogen light Unfiltered, 30 s @ f/5.6 ISO 3200, Baader UV-IR-Cut & Hoya RM72 Filters, Daylight/Sunny WB

 

5. Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, Halogen light Unfiltered, 10 s @ f/5.6 ISO 6400, Baader UV-IR-Cut & Hoya RM72 Filters, Daylight/Sunny WB

 

6. Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, Halogen light Unfiltered, 10 s @ f/5.6 ISO 8000, Baader UV-IR-Cut & Hoya RM72 Filters, Daylight/Sunny WB

 

7. Canon 1D Mark IV Unmodified, EL-Nikkor 80mm f5.6, 3 Modified Vivitar 285 HV's Unfiltered, Halogen light Unfiltered, 10 s @ f/5.6 ISO 10000, Baader UV-IR-Cut & Hoya RM72 Filters, Daylight/Sunny WB

 

-D

[colinbm]

Hi Damon

Nice group of photos of the Orchid flower in the different lights.

 

Thanks for showing the tests.

I can see that the IR from the Blak-Ray B-100AP's isn't getting past the Baader UV/IR cut filter, but is getting past the Halogen lamp & the flash.

A Schott's S8612 filter would cut the IR some more for you.

Cheers

Col

[Damon]

OK so we are on the same page. Thanks!

 

I am going to try my Baader U with the Hoya in front and see if IR gets past that as an experiment.

Is stacking 2 of the same filters better than one?

 

If I don't observe any effects of IR on the images, is it sacrilegious in the UV community to let it go? Technically there is some IR getting through at very long shutter speeds with high iso's above 3200 using my Vivitar's (I can get rid of the halogen). But I haven't had to use such settings much if at all as of yet and I hope I don't ever have to. So I doubt it is adding much if anything. See, I've already convinced myself.

It's somewhat tough to get sharp images as it is so if I keep adding filters, the image quality & light available will keep going down no?

 

-D

[Damon]

The Secret interior of my sophisticated UV Shack

 

Blak-Ray Madness

I usually shoot with these 4 and then hold 2 more full a full blast

 

 

 

 

-D

[colinbm]

Hey Damon, it not secret anymore.....looks like organized chaos in there.

Col

[colinbm]

OK so we are on the same page. Thanks!

 

I am going to try my Baader U with the Hoya in front and see if IR gets past that as an experiment.

Is stacking 2 of the same filters better than one?

 

If I don't observe any effects of IR on the images, is it sacrilegious in the UV community to let it go? Technically there is some IR getting through at very long shutter speeds with high iso's above 3200 using my Vivitar's (I can get rid of the halogen). But I haven't had to use such settings much if at all as of yet and I hope I don't ever have to. So I doubt it is adding much if anything. See, I've already convinced myself.

It's somewhat tough to get sharp images as it is so if I keep adding filters, the image quality & light available will keep going down no?

 

-D

 

Hi Damon

I hope no IR get past the Baader U, especially if it is the latest version....

Stacking filters can help, IR can be aggressive.

Don't forget you are using a camera that is not at its best for UV, it is already compromised.

Col

[Damon]

I thought the bungee cord at the top would add a little class.

It's a new Baader U.

 

Why don't they use the same IR coating from the Baader U on the Baader UV-IR cut filter then? I suppose it's more complicated then that.

 

The Baader U and my old 5D is the experiment tomorrow.

 

-D